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HelpBoy's middle name for a girl
I've been reading about Lizzie Borden lately and so have been reminded of the fact that her name was Lizzie Andrew Borden. That was the name she was given at birth, Lizzie (not Elizabeth, Lizzie) Andrew Borden. Later, after she had been acquitted of murder and come into her father's substantial fortune, she legally changed her first name to Lizbeth. Not Elizabeth, Lizbeth.
Her father's name was Andrew so it's obvious it was in honor of him. She was the third daughter and, as it turned out, the last child, so perhaps it was decided it was unlikely there'd be a son to bear the name.
It's always struck me as weird. And I'm usually the first to say that it doesn't matter how weird a middle name is if it has meaning. Which this one obviously did. But still. Andrew is so thoroughly a masculine name and so entrenched as one that this is going a little too far even for me.
What do you think of the practice of giving a girl a very established and very definitely masculine name as a middle name, if it's to honor? Too weird or burdensome, or okay?
Her father's name was Andrew so it's obvious it was in honor of him. She was the third daughter and, as it turned out, the last child, so perhaps it was decided it was unlikely there'd be a son to bear the name.
It's always struck me as weird. And I'm usually the first to say that it doesn't matter how weird a middle name is if it has meaning. Which this one obviously did. But still. Andrew is so thoroughly a masculine name and so entrenched as one that this is going a little too far even for me.
What do you think of the practice of giving a girl a very established and very definitely masculine name as a middle name, if it's to honor? Too weird or burdensome, or okay?
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Kind of a resounding "no" from me. I'm not completely against the idea of honoring a male in a girl's middle name if it's for a really important reason, like if the father died or something, but even then Andrew's pushing it a little. I mean...how hard would it have been to use Andrea? You'd still be honoring, just with the feminine form. Easier all around, yes?
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With a name like Andrew I would have been more inclined to give her the middle name Andrea or Drew as a way on honouring. Most names can be got around like that, my dad was Keith, which you can't really get around, but his middle name was Andrew and so to honour I would probably use the middle name Drew (on either a girl or a boy).
I hate to say it; but it's probably a lot more acceptable than doing it the other way round, e.g. giving a son the middle name Ann after his mother. Which is a shame, I think.
I hate to say it; but it's probably a lot more acceptable than doing it the other way round, e.g. giving a son the middle name Ann after his mother. Which is a shame, I think.
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In the context...
I appreciate it. I like that old, bygone-era image that it evokes. It definitely has a certain sense of history. It's a logical move akin to using a mother's maiden name as a middle name, IMO.
However! I think it's neat, but it's not close enough to my name style for me to actually do it.
I remember reading a series of books about a girl named Katie John, who was given her father's name because they weren't going to end up having more children or something like that.
I appreciate it. I like that old, bygone-era image that it evokes. It definitely has a certain sense of history. It's a logical move akin to using a mother's maiden name as a middle name, IMO.
However! I think it's neat, but it's not close enough to my name style for me to actually do it.
I remember reading a series of books about a girl named Katie John, who was given her father's name because they weren't going to end up having more children or something like that.
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I really, really don't like it...although, on the other hand, I told my husband before we knew we were actually having a girl, that if she was born on his birthday, I thought it would be cool to name her after him...his middle name is Ryan, so I said we could make it more feminine by changing it to Ryanne (with prn Ry-Anne)...to which he thoroughly objected and said was ridiculous. And I dont love the name, but I thought it would be sweet. So, I guess I would still have to say, I hate boys names on girls, and I really don't like an obviously masculine name on a girl for a middle name either...
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I think it's all right. It might look a little weird at first, but once I know the reason, it wouldn't be so odd.
I was at a historic home downtown recently, and discovered that one of the daughters in the family had the middle name of Buchanan. I can't remember her first name, but the family apparently called her Bucky.
I was at a historic home downtown recently, and discovered that one of the daughters in the family had the middle name of Buchanan. I can't remember her first name, but the family apparently called her Bucky.
This message was edited 7/18/2014, 10:46 AM
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I don't like it, but if it's to honor I can understand it.
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It's fine.
I don't think middle names matter that much (bad name nerd, I know), and I can't get too worked up about masculine names on girls when they're used as first names, much less hidden in the middle. It makes no difference to my feelings whether it's an honoring name or not.
I'm actually bothered more by the Lizzie in "Lizzie Andrew" than Andrew. Lizzie doesn't work well as a standalone, imo. Lizbeth, though not ideal, is an improvement.
I don't think middle names matter that much (bad name nerd, I know), and I can't get too worked up about masculine names on girls when they're used as first names, much less hidden in the middle. It makes no difference to my feelings whether it's an honoring name or not.
I'm actually bothered more by the Lizzie in "Lizzie Andrew" than Andrew. Lizzie doesn't work well as a standalone, imo. Lizbeth, though not ideal, is an improvement.
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It might not have been especially unusual for the time and the place; the Bordens were upper-class New Englanders, and those types of people are all about commemorating themselves and their ancestors.
I believe that Lizzie's older sister Emma, or perhaps the other sister who died very young, was given the mother's name as a middle name, but I cannot for the life of me remember what the lady's name was. Margaret? Elizabeth?
I sure wouldn't do it, but there's a lot worse names she could have gotten. It probably would have been more usual to give her Andrew's middle name as her middle name, but he might not have had one. A lot fewer people had middle names back then anyway.
Heere's another bit of Borden name trivia: at the time of the old folks' murder, the Bordens had a maid named Bridget Sullivan, who'd worked for them for a couple of years. Andrew and Abby called her Bridget, but Emma and Lizzie called her Maggie. The reason was that Maggie had been the name of the previous maid, and they couldn't be bothered to calling Bridget anything else. Which if you ask me says a lot about the sisters.
I believe that Lizzie's older sister Emma, or perhaps the other sister who died very young, was given the mother's name as a middle name, but I cannot for the life of me remember what the lady's name was. Margaret? Elizabeth?
I sure wouldn't do it, but there's a lot worse names she could have gotten. It probably would have been more usual to give her Andrew's middle name as her middle name, but he might not have had one. A lot fewer people had middle names back then anyway.
Heere's another bit of Borden name trivia: at the time of the old folks' murder, the Bordens had a maid named Bridget Sullivan, who'd worked for them for a couple of years. Andrew and Abby called her Bridget, but Emma and Lizzie called her Maggie. The reason was that Maggie had been the name of the previous maid, and they couldn't be bothered to calling Bridget anything else. Which if you ask me says a lot about the sisters.
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Yeah, that was really rude of them to refuse to call Bridget by her real name.
Lizzie's mother's name was Sarah. Andrew Borden's middle name was Jackson. Emma's middle name was Lenora. The child who died young was named Alice Ester.
Regarding your designation of the Bordens as upper-class: Not really. Although Andrew Borden was a descendant of one of the oldest families in the state, many of whom were or had been wealthy, he was born into a branch that did not have a lot of money and he struggled financially as a young man. By the time of his death, he definitely was wealthy, but this was entirely earned by himself, none of it had been inherited. And he chose not to live in the manner in which his money could enable him to. Their house was in a solidly middle-class neighborhood, not in the upper-class neighborhood in which the town's wealthy residents lived. He refused to have modern conveniences, such as indoor plumbing, installed. This was in fact pointed to as a possible motive for Lizzie to want to murder her father and stepmother--she wanted a better lifestyle, which her father refused to provide for her, although he could have, and was worried he would pre-decease her stepmother and leave the bulk of his fortune to her.
At the time of Lizzie's birth, he had not yet accumulated the bulk of his wealth, so I think at that time particularly, Andrew Borden and his wife could not be designated as upper-class.
Lizzie's mother's name was Sarah. Andrew Borden's middle name was Jackson. Emma's middle name was Lenora. The child who died young was named Alice Ester.
Regarding your designation of the Bordens as upper-class: Not really. Although Andrew Borden was a descendant of one of the oldest families in the state, many of whom were or had been wealthy, he was born into a branch that did not have a lot of money and he struggled financially as a young man. By the time of his death, he definitely was wealthy, but this was entirely earned by himself, none of it had been inherited. And he chose not to live in the manner in which his money could enable him to. Their house was in a solidly middle-class neighborhood, not in the upper-class neighborhood in which the town's wealthy residents lived. He refused to have modern conveniences, such as indoor plumbing, installed. This was in fact pointed to as a possible motive for Lizzie to want to murder her father and stepmother--she wanted a better lifestyle, which her father refused to provide for her, although he could have, and was worried he would pre-decease her stepmother and leave the bulk of his fortune to her.
At the time of Lizzie's birth, he had not yet accumulated the bulk of his wealth, so I think at that time particularly, Andrew Borden and his wife could not be designated as upper-class.
This message was edited 7/18/2014, 6:50 AM
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Especially among New Englanders in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, class wouldn't have been determined by money alone. Andrew Borden's lineage would have been more important.
I mean, look at impoverished aristocrats throughout Europe. They were surely still the upper classes, just without money. This is how it is where I'm from. Old name = upper class. Money, made on one's own or not, has little to do with it if you have an old name. However, if you don't have a prestigious lineage, and then you make lots of money, people around my hometown will call you nouveau riche.
I mean, look at impoverished aristocrats throughout Europe. They were surely still the upper classes, just without money. This is how it is where I'm from. Old name = upper class. Money, made on one's own or not, has little to do with it if you have an old name. However, if you don't have a prestigious lineage, and then you make lots of money, people around my hometown will call you nouveau riche.
This message was edited 7/18/2014, 11:25 AM
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So, would someone with an old name and no money get more respect/admiration than someone who made their own money?
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Maybe not respect or admiration, but envy or a little bit of awe. But maybe from those people who respect others based on their class, yes.
This is why if I were ever to make lots of money, I'd never refer to myself above middle class.
This is why if I were ever to make lots of money, I'd never refer to myself above middle class.
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I know we've had this discussion before, but that's the opposite of the way things are here. People would be more in awe of a person who came from nothing and worked themselves up to a higher tax bracket than a poor person with a family name. The family name person would be interesting, but it wouldn't be awe inspiring.
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I've seen it work in practice a couple of times - Vivi Charles, Margaret George. Both circumstances were family surnames, and in order for it to "work" I think the names have to be very traditional male classics that have a softer sound. Charles instead of Frederick, George instead of Robert. The female name should be undeniably feminine, so I think it was smart that they used Vivi/Vivienne instead of Vivian, which could skew male.
Like so many thing,it's case by case.
Like so many thing,it's case by case.
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Jeez, that's real bad.
(This is going to sound insensitive) My grandmother had a little sister who died close to birth and her name was Maurice Elizabeth. Never will I understand.
I don't hate surname names as middle names on girls most of the time, if the surname name is a family name.
So, I kind of like Susannah Wilder lastname or Elizabeth Sullivan lastname.
(I have claim to neither of those lastnames - I just think they're nice ones. In my family, we have mostly clunkers like Platt)
(This is going to sound insensitive) My grandmother had a little sister who died close to birth and her name was Maurice Elizabeth. Never will I understand.
I don't hate surname names as middle names on girls most of the time, if the surname name is a family name.
So, I kind of like Susannah Wilder lastname or Elizabeth Sullivan lastname.
(I have claim to neither of those lastnames - I just think they're nice ones. In my family, we have mostly clunkers like Platt)
This message was edited 7/18/2014, 5:39 AM
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I love the idea of a girl being named after her dad. So sweet. But I would certainly do everything in my power to make a feminine or gender-neutral name out of her dad's name. I would have used Andi or Andrea or Drew instead of Andrew.
That said, it's really not that bad. I mean, it's pretty easy to explain.
"Why do you have a BOYS name as your middle name?"
"Because I'm named after my dad."
"Oh. Weird. Okay."
That said, it's really not that bad. I mean, it's pretty easy to explain.
"Why do you have a BOYS name as your middle name?"
"Because I'm named after my dad."
"Oh. Weird. Okay."
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Hmmm I think if the name flows nicely, it's fine? Lizzie Andrew just kind of dies out on my tongue and I don't like the flow. My parents did a similar thing with my older sister, they thought she was going to be last kid (I was entirely a surprise) and gave her the middle name James for my dad. So her name is Samantha James, which I think sounds quite nice.
It has spiraled out of control though, my oldest sister named her two boys after my dad as well (Kaihl (its pronounced Kyle, stupid I know) James, and James William Michael) and my other two sisters took that as a signal that they needed to name ALL future grandkids after my dad, even the girls. So we have total, Kaihl James, James William Michael, David Stephen James, Madyson Taylor Jaymes (according to my sister, the Y makes it more feminine), Kassandra Jaymes, Lucas James, Mariellen Jaymes and Case James.
I will not be giving future children the middle name James, needless to say.
It has spiraled out of control though, my oldest sister named her two boys after my dad as well (Kaihl (its pronounced Kyle, stupid I know) James, and James William Michael) and my other two sisters took that as a signal that they needed to name ALL future grandkids after my dad, even the girls. So we have total, Kaihl James, James William Michael, David Stephen James, Madyson Taylor Jaymes (according to my sister, the Y makes it more feminine), Kassandra Jaymes, Lucas James, Mariellen Jaymes and Case James.
I will not be giving future children the middle name James, needless to say.
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Oh my gosh, that really did get out of control! :) Is you dad really really amazing? You should name all your kids after you mom! Just kidding.
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Yeah, my dad was a great guy! It kind of spiraled out of control after he passed away and my sisters thought that was the only way to honor him. If they really wanted too, they would have named one of the girls Molly, his favorite name :)
Unfortunately for my mom, none of us like Sandra or Louise, ahaha. Taylor is supposedly for my mom, but she doesn't think so. It's her mom's maiden name. My sisters tend to get a little crazy.
Unfortunately for my mom, none of us like Sandra or Louise, ahaha. Taylor is supposedly for my mom, but she doesn't think so. It's her mom's maiden name. My sisters tend to get a little crazy.
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I actually don't think it's weird at all, I think it's kinda cool. I have a weird crush on James for a girl. I would never use it as a fn for a daughter because I would never convince SO of it and I know it would cause her problems in life but as a middle name I think it would be cool. I know a girl with Ashton as a mn, I thought it was interesting and unusual.
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I think it's a little weird. But at the same time, I kinda like it. But only if it's clearly honoring.Isn't it a very southern thing to do, or am I confusing things?
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I don't really know. But the Bordens lived in Massachussetts, a Northern state, and the family had been entrenched there for years.
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No no no no
I hate it. They don't need to honor the father. They have his last name. The only way I could kinda see it was ok is if it was the mothers maiden name or something.. however I wouldn't do it.
I really hate boys names on girls in almost any circumstance.
I hate it. They don't need to honor the father. They have his last name. The only way I could kinda see it was ok is if it was the mothers maiden name or something.. however I wouldn't do it.
I really hate boys names on girls in almost any circumstance.
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Do you think of having a father's last name as honouring? That has never crossed my mind. In my circles, it is extremely common for wives to take their husband's last name. And, at least in my experience, after the four years of marriage before having kids I certainly felt like it was my last name too. It had come to represent us together and now our whole family. I don't think of it as HIS last name so much as OURS.
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I've had my married name for thirty-four years now, which is fourteen years longer than I ever had my maiden name, and I still don't feel that it says "me" the way that my maiden name did. Now that you mention it, and I've examined how I really feel, I do feel that the name "belongs" much more to my husband and my children than it does to me.
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I've wondered whether the fact that I am a teacher and so have always had students call me by Mrs Lastname makes a difference. I was still in school while I was single/engaged and so have only used my married name in my profession. Maybe that contributes to feeling like it is me.
Does your job (or do other things) mean people call you Mrs ___?
Does your job (or do other things) mean people call you Mrs ___?
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No. I am so rarely ever called Mrs. Lastname.
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We are relatively formal, where I live.Just yesterday, I happened to meet my son's mother-in-law, and her sister, at the grocery store. I hadn't met this sister before, so son's MIL introduced me as "Mme.A."
Sometimes my son's MIL and I first-name each other, but more usually, I'd call her Mme. Jacqueline (her first name), and she calls me Mme.Jean.
(should add, she is the nicest of women, and fond of my son, as he is of her.)
Sometimes my son's MIL and I first-name each other, but more usually, I'd call her Mme. Jacqueline (her first name), and she calls me Mme.Jean.
(should add, she is the nicest of women, and fond of my son, as he is of her.)
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It must be a difference between Canadians and Americans. I can't imagine Americans doing that. Even my friends' children didn't call me Mrs. Lastname. They called me Miss Janice.
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Well, Canada is a big country, and I only know well the particular corner that I've lived in, for most of my married life. So, I can't speak for the whole country! :-)
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I like the idea behind it when it comes to honoring.
Personally I like George, James, Hugo, Eli, and a few others that escape me at the moment as middle names for girls. I can't say I would ever use them. However, being forward thinking I've wondered if it would be smart to give a girl a boy's name as a middle name and a boy a girl's name as a middle name. My thinking behind this was what if they grow up to identify with the opposite gender. Either way it'd have to sound nice an flow well with the first name. Just in case.
Personally I like George, James, Hugo, Eli, and a few others that escape me at the moment as middle names for girls. I can't say I would ever use them. However, being forward thinking I've wondered if it would be smart to give a girl a boy's name as a middle name and a boy a girl's name as a middle name. My thinking behind this was what if they grow up to identify with the opposite gender. Either way it'd have to sound nice an flow well with the first name. Just in case.
This message was edited 7/17/2014, 8:02 PM
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I wouldn't ever do it myself, but honoring is not important to me. But it is always kind of interesting to see it happen. I guess I'm okay with it, but I wish it would happen in the other way too (third son and final child named after mother?).
I don't really like it when it's done as a first name though, only as middle names. Barack Obama's mother was named Stanley Ann after her father, and I'm not into that.
I don't really like it when it's done as a first name though, only as middle names. Barack Obama's mother was named Stanley Ann after her father, and I'm not into that.
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Eh, I think they're fine. I can't muster anything more than that, because I'm home sick and I'm in an, 'anything goes' kind of mood.
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How do you feel about Burpenfart as a middle name? Okay with that? LOL, answer again when you're feeling better.
Just kidding around, don't take me seriously.
Just kidding around, don't take me seriously.
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Is Burpenfart a family name?
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LOL, this cracked me up! Because, no, it's not really a family name, but my friend and I used to joke that his mother's maiden name was von Burpenfart and she was from an old noble German family and that's what he should tell people. No, it wasn't really his mother's maiden name.
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