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HelpWhy is Y considered “feminine?”
It’s a prettt common practice for parents to add a Y (or several Ys) to otherwise masculine names to “feminize” them (like in Robyn, Blayke, or Masyn). Why is this, from a linguistic standpoint?
Other feminizations seem more straightforward, like adding -a, -ina, or -ette, like in Paula (Paul), Christina (Christopher), or Yvette (Yves). These endings are widely recognized as feminine across several Western languages, so it makes sense that they’d be used to “girl up” male names.
But Y isn’t seen that way linguistically, so its “feminine” connotation is more of a mystery.
*previously posted as summitseeker*
--hike more / worry less--
Other feminizations seem more straightforward, like adding -a, -ina, or -ette, like in Paula (Paul), Christina (Christopher), or Yvette (Yves). These endings are widely recognized as feminine across several Western languages, so it makes sense that they’d be used to “girl up” male names.
But Y isn’t seen that way linguistically, so its “feminine” connotation is more of a mystery.
*previously posted as summitseeker*
--hike more / worry less--
This message was edited 6/23/2018, 12:48 AM
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If it's used more for girls, I don't think it's necessarily on purpose or for a logical reason. People probably just think it looks cool. I asked once why my NN was spelled with a Y instead of the (more feminine, actually) I, and my dad was like, "I dunno, it just looked more geometrically correct."
Maybe, with newly unisex names, if the name is already established for boys, the parents are more likely to stick with the established spelling? But since there's less precedent for the girls' version, they feel they have more leeway to personalize it.
Or it could be used as a way to take the "son" out of -son names.
Maybe, with newly unisex names, if the name is already established for boys, the parents are more likely to stick with the established spelling? But since there's less precedent for the girls' version, they feel they have more leeway to personalize it.
Or it could be used as a way to take the "son" out of -son names.
This message was edited 6/24/2018, 12:25 AM
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Interesting:
Might,
If "Simon" - is phonetically "si / mun" -
may this same spelling also phonetically be pronounced 'Sim / on' - with a long letter o (as in the words 'low' & 'go'). Utilization of the long 'o' would be acceptable for either gender with little question other than a presumptive query;
Would Symon then be an alternate spelling for either pronunciation???
Might,
If "Simon" - is phonetically "si / mun" -
may this same spelling also phonetically be pronounced 'Sim / on' - with a long letter o (as in the words 'low' & 'go'). Utilization of the long 'o' would be acceptable for either gender with little question other than a presumptive query;
Would Symon then be an alternate spelling for either pronunciation???
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I also just remembered that the first "dan-YELL" I ever met was spelled Danyel. At the time I assumed that was normal and when I saw Danielle I thought it was a frilly version, but actually Danyel could be pronounced Daniel just as easily while Danielle is definitely dan-YELL. (except that people try to add "anne" to the end of names and still pronounce that syllable as an unstressed "un")
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Even better, in Welsh the Y is often seen as masculine (-wen versus -wyn as a name ending, especially).
I hadn't really seen this as a "feminization" trend, but more or less a "Y" trend (didn't a celebrity name her son Fynn not long ago?). I guess a lot of people think the letter Y looks cool. As for feminization, specifically, the only thing I can think of is the name Lynn - traditionally masculine, then it became unisex, and after being a filler feminine middle name for so long it is now almost solely feminine. So maybe these parents are subconsciously thinking of it as a "Lynn Principle"?
I hadn't really seen this as a "feminization" trend, but more or less a "Y" trend (didn't a celebrity name her son Fynn not long ago?). I guess a lot of people think the letter Y looks cool. As for feminization, specifically, the only thing I can think of is the name Lynn - traditionally masculine, then it became unisex, and after being a filler feminine middle name for so long it is now almost solely feminine. So maybe these parents are subconsciously thinking of it as a "Lynn Principle"?
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Yes
Yes!
I am sorry to say that I agree with you and recognize this conventional misnomer - concerning the Ashlee / Ashley spelling conventional connotation.
I recognize it; I feel it, but everything in me wants to reject & defy it.
Please know that I am not trying to argue with you in any way - because I agree with your statement, I am just unhappy that this ridiculous convention exists.
Yes!
I am sorry to say that I agree with you and recognize this conventional misnomer - concerning the Ashlee / Ashley spelling conventional connotation.
I recognize it; I feel it, but everything in me wants to reject & defy it.
Please know that I am not trying to argue with you in any way - because I agree with your statement, I am just unhappy that this ridiculous convention exists.
This message was edited 6/24/2018, 5:36 AM
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My guess is, in a lot of cases it just started as wanting a *different* spelling to distinguish it from the commonly used male version, and the convention caught on.
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I think I can agree with Pie, it just follows -lyn being feminine.
That said, Landyn, Kamryn, and Camdyn are on the current top 1000 for boys, and in BAs this year, for boys, I've seen Korbyn, Carsyn, Jaxyn, Declyn & Deklyn, Bodyn, Kannyn, Caisyn, Aidyn, Avyn, Brailyn, Breckyn, Colsyn, Fynn, Gattlyn, Gavyn, Graysyn, Haydyn, Jadyn, Jaxsyn, Jaxtyn, Karlyn, Karsyn, Kashtyn, Kowyn, Krysyn, Lynkin, Macklyn, Maxyn, Odyn, Shayne, Stetsyn, Taylynn, Tensyn, Trentyn, Trillyn, and Westyn, so -yn being feminine isn't a hard and fast rule.
That said, Landyn, Kamryn, and Camdyn are on the current top 1000 for boys, and in BAs this year, for boys, I've seen Korbyn, Carsyn, Jaxyn, Declyn & Deklyn, Bodyn, Kannyn, Caisyn, Aidyn, Avyn, Brailyn, Breckyn, Colsyn, Fynn, Gattlyn, Gavyn, Graysyn, Haydyn, Jadyn, Jaxsyn, Jaxtyn, Karlyn, Karsyn, Kashtyn, Kowyn, Krysyn, Lynkin, Macklyn, Maxyn, Odyn, Shayne, Stetsyn, Taylynn, Tensyn, Trentyn, Trillyn, and Westyn, so -yn being feminine isn't a hard and fast rule.
This message was edited 6/23/2018, 8:18 AM
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Maybe it's to make something like Stetson look more like a name than a hat? If y has become a marker - 'This is a given name' - then the gender marker - 'Y is a pretty, frilly, unnecessary letter well suited to females' - becomes redundant.
I know a Bronwyn Jayne; her birth ln isn't May but it might as well be. Once she went to the kind of conference where you all wear name tags, and hers gave her name as Brown Wine. Go figure.
I know a Bronwyn Jayne; her birth ln isn't May but it might as well be. Once she went to the kind of conference where you all wear name tags, and hers gave her name as Brown Wine. Go figure.
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Ouch! The pain of having an unusual name; totally understand it. I’ve had more than enough name tags labeled “Candice” or “Kaitlin” or something else totally wrong so yeah. But you would think Bronwyn is a familiar enough name (and the y is standard).
‘Brown Wine’ is on a whole new level though. Egads!
‘Brown Wine’ is on a whole new level though. Egads!
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Worse ... she's a Methodist, and wine of any colour is unknown to her!
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dafuq is Krysyn??? lol
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Fynn? Kowyn? Odyn? Yikes. I can handle a y-replacing-a-vowel most of the time, but those are pretty awful.
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I wouldn't include Masyn and Blayke in quite the same category as Robyn; I mean, those two are not all that well-known as names, and I have seen that style of name used on boys, y and all. (I've known of a little boy named Jadyn, for instance.) I think in those cases it's just part of the general y trend that also gives us Alayna, Lauryn and Zoey.
For Robyn I think it just was part of an earlier trend of more creative spelling, like Kristopher and Micheal and Sherri. In the US, Robin was never anywhere near as common as a boys' name as it was in the UK, so the fact that Robyn was seen as more of a girls' name than Robin is probably not very closely tied to the y spelling.
For Robyn I think it just was part of an earlier trend of more creative spelling, like Kristopher and Micheal and Sherri. In the US, Robin was never anywhere near as common as a boys' name as it was in the UK, so the fact that Robyn was seen as more of a girls' name than Robin is probably not very closely tied to the y spelling.
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it also works the other way ...
Sometimes, especially with nns, y is more common on males. Nicky is much more likely to be male than female, as the female version is most often Nikki or Niki. Ditto with Tony and Toni, Cary and Carrie.
Sometimes, especially with nns, y is more common on males. Nicky is much more likely to be male than female, as the female version is most often Nikki or Niki. Ditto with Tony and Toni, Cary and Carrie.
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Yes I agree RoxStar
The only possible exception would be Barry, but I always believed this to commonly serve as a formal name - not a nickname as BtN states.
I knew one 'Barry' when young - around the time my nickname would vary between Barbie & Bobbie; I retained the "ie" spelling especially in my early youth as the 'tail' on the lower-case "y" letter would "get me into trouble" with penmanship.
The only other Bobbie I knew was female (Bobbie-Ann / Bobbi-Ann)--whose name was hyphenated (double-barrel), and I am uncertain whether she used an "e" - or even a hyphen for that matter.
The only possible exception would be Barry, but I always believed this to commonly serve as a formal name - not a nickname as BtN states.
I knew one 'Barry' when young - around the time my nickname would vary between Barbie & Bobbie; I retained the "ie" spelling especially in my early youth as the 'tail' on the lower-case "y" letter would "get me into trouble" with penmanship.
The only other Bobbie I knew was female (Bobbie-Ann / Bobbi-Ann)--whose name was hyphenated (double-barrel), and I am uncertain whether she used an "e" - or even a hyphen for that matter.
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I met a female Barri, once. If I recall correctly, it was a full name, not a nn for Barbara or anything.
This message was edited 6/23/2018, 6:42 PM
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I like that!
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Yes - now that I am older (older than early elementary school) I recognize this convention too. I did not know this while learning to write - while penmanship would be graded by character shape, legibility, and overall neatness. So at least for me, acknowledgment of such a trite empirical convention does not endow laudable merit to this all too common prejudice.
I have a girl friend by the name of Bobbie that uses this form without any sort of nick-name; I also have a female extremely friendly acquaintance by the name of Barbara that will ONLY answer to Bobbie. While extremely young, I only knew of one male "Bob" - but he was an adult, so perhaps he (is?) Robert; otherwise, all males by the name of Robert that I knew used Rob as a short-name - or simply used 'Robert' without an a/k/a.
____________________________________________________________
When learning to read (and write) in school, I at least for the most part, knew how to read (at least the basic texts written for children &/or young readers); yet the school district required us to learn the two referenced skills through a method entitled ITA (International Teaching Alphabet): this method uses characters (letters) commonly used throughout what we now classify as the Middle English alphabet--even as much as a few hundred years before the printing press would further modernize our alphabet. I simply cannot imagine that I am the only student that suffered degradation for (and from) this. Still, I am better, now, to have an applied knowledge of these various spellings - and to state that one spelling is "better" or "more official" than another is akin to a quotation from Shakespeare's lovely Isabella when she states “But man, proud man, / Dress'd in a little brief authority, / Most ignorant of what he's most assur'd". (I love this quotation; I certainly do not intend this toward you or anyone on this site, and I apologize if it seems or seemed that way. I intend this toward the petty attempt to standardize spelling; and despite many gains after a few hundred years - we have still failed to do so.)
I have a girl friend by the name of Bobbie that uses this form without any sort of nick-name; I also have a female extremely friendly acquaintance by the name of Barbara that will ONLY answer to Bobbie. While extremely young, I only knew of one male "Bob" - but he was an adult, so perhaps he (is?) Robert; otherwise, all males by the name of Robert that I knew used Rob as a short-name - or simply used 'Robert' without an a/k/a.
____________________________________________________________
When learning to read (and write) in school, I at least for the most part, knew how to read (at least the basic texts written for children &/or young readers); yet the school district required us to learn the two referenced skills through a method entitled ITA (International Teaching Alphabet): this method uses characters (letters) commonly used throughout what we now classify as the Middle English alphabet--even as much as a few hundred years before the printing press would further modernize our alphabet. I simply cannot imagine that I am the only student that suffered degradation for (and from) this. Still, I am better, now, to have an applied knowledge of these various spellings - and to state that one spelling is "better" or "more official" than another is akin to a quotation from Shakespeare's lovely Isabella when she states “But man, proud man, / Dress'd in a little brief authority, / Most ignorant of what he's most assur'd". (I love this quotation; I certainly do not intend this toward you or anyone on this site, and I apologize if it seems or seemed that way. I intend this toward the petty attempt to standardize spelling; and despite many gains after a few hundred years - we have still failed to do so.)
This message was edited 6/24/2018, 7:37 AM
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Yeah, all of that makes sense to me, and it’s similar to my experience. I didn’t know that my name was “spelled unusually” / “feminized” until I was older. But it used to really bother young me that there was an ‘extra’ letter in my name, based on sound. So I used to cut out the Y in my name (and other “misspellings” and “extra letters” in other people’s names; it drove people crazy!). Did eventually grow out of it (around 8-9ish?). Think it was because my brain used to work extremely literally and in terms of generalizations.
Edited for clarity
Edited for clarity
This message was edited 6/24/2018, 9:07 AM
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In the future - if you like, this is entirely your choice, you can change either the spelling of your name - or even alter the pronunciation; treating the letter "y" as both consonant and vowel - retaining, prolonging, or even altering the letter "a" vowel which precedes it. You can personalize your name entirely as you like it.
In the US - your legal signature - even above a typed font, need not clearly depict every - or even any - letter.
In the US - your legal signature - even above a typed font, need not clearly depict every - or even any - letter.
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I like the pronunciation of my name! I just wished it were spelled Caden, it would be simpler. It is what it is, though, not worth changing it.
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I question the same exact thing. This is one of my name pet peeves. Not only is the poor girl burden with carrying an incredibly masculine sounding name but don't parents realize how ridiculous the spelling looks?
I don't at all support masculine names on girls but using the correct and original spelling would be less of an eye sore.
The spellings don't serve any justice whomever has one, boy or girl.
Robin is a unisex name IMO so there's really no need to slaughter the spelling. This one personally baffles me.
I don't at all support masculine names on girls but using the correct and original spelling would be less of an eye sore.
The spellings don't serve any justice whomever has one, boy or girl.
Robin is a unisex name IMO so there's really no need to slaughter the spelling. This one personally baffles me.
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I think "y" just looks "trendy" for some reason (and trendiness is associated with feminine names?)
Like Robyn is very dated because it was trendy in the past, while other "unnecessary y" names look trendy now but will be dated soon.
(and Robyn also baffles me, but so does Lilly. And especially because Robin and Lily are real words, not just names. I suppose Lilly can be short for Lillian but Robyn... nah.)
Like Robyn is very dated because it was trendy in the past, while other "unnecessary y" names look trendy now but will be dated soon.
(and Robyn also baffles me, but so does Lilly. And especially because Robin and Lily are real words, not just names. I suppose Lilly can be short for Lillian but Robyn... nah.)
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I actually kind of like masculine names on girls / women, but really just don’t see the need to spell it differently. You’re giving your daughter a boy’s name, adding a bunch of “cute” ys and is won’t change that.
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I don't think there's anything inherently feminine about Y. I think it's just a convention that come to be widely accepted that the addition of a Y or replacement of a vowel with Y denotes a feminine name.
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I'm guessing that because added -lyn endings have become so common in the US, people there are now seeing -yn as a feminine ending.
It's not a trend here and tbh I'm not really sure how to pronounce them. Is it may SIN or just like Mason?
It's not a trend here and tbh I'm not really sure how to pronounce them. Is it may SIN or just like Mason?
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Same! Whenever I see those spellings they look like they're pronounced completely differently from the original name, but they're usually pronounced the same.
Even without the "y" thing, there are unnecessary feminizations like Morganne, Jordanne, Ryann, etc. that all look like the emphasized syllable is supposed to be "ANN" (or "IN" for the "yn / ynn" type endings) but they're always just like "oh it's pronounced Jordan" or whatever. Why would you emphasize a syllable in the spelling if you didn't want people to say it that way??
Even without the "y" thing, there are unnecessary feminizations like Morganne, Jordanne, Ryann, etc. that all look like the emphasized syllable is supposed to be "ANN" (or "IN" for the "yn / ynn" type endings) but they're always just like "oh it's pronounced Jordan" or whatever. Why would you emphasize a syllable in the spelling if you didn't want people to say it that way??
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I pronounce Mason like may-sin, haha.
I don't know either. Maybe the parents changed the spelling to reflect their pronunciation or maybe they just didn't want "son" in their daughter's name.
I don't know either. Maybe the parents changed the spelling to reflect their pronunciation or maybe they just didn't want "son" in their daughter's name.
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Hmm...that's a very good question, Cayden! I wonder that sometimes myself. Sorry I couldn't give you a good answer, but maybe somebody else will. :)
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