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Re: Marriage names
Good questions! I'm not a lawyer, but I think in many US states you can use any last name you want to as long as there's no intent to defraud anyone (banks, credit card companies, employers) by doing so.Of course, the federal and local governments would probably have some objections to a man's simply adopting (for all purposes) his wife's last name, since it's VERY uncommon and we're not QUITE yet to the Fourth Reich practice of identifying everyone primarily by Social Security Number. In the official view, tho, it would play hell with tax rolls and jury rolls if they allowed it to happen.In the case of two-name hyphenations, which I personally find unattractive and cumbersome, you may even have to take legal steps to get both parties' last names legally changed to the joint one. I've never asked anyone who'd adopted such a name (couldn't stop laughing).Does a hyphenated last name (his and wife's) make a man less manly? No, but most other men would consider him so, right or wrong.My personal opinion on the whole surname matter? I think wives should be encouraged to retain their birth surnames rather than subjugate their own identity, even symbolically, to their husband's. It would be no more confusing than the surname mess we have already in the US due to divorces. I've said here before that by the mid-90s, my two kids had exactly ONE close friend between them who had the same surname as the mother, due to divorce and re-marriage.My wife of 28 years uses my last name and always has since our marriage, altho I encouraged her to do "whatever she wanted" at the time. Too rooted in tradition, I guess. (My 20 year old daughter may do differently when the time comes.)- Da.
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Thanks, Daividh, that was interesting.
Just to make sure - in Scandinavia and Germany it's still the most common way that both partners take over the husband's surname after their marriage (but they NEVER use the husband's first name when introducing a women - it's always Frau Sarah Maier and never Frau Peter Maier).
Regards, Satu
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Referring to a woman in the US as "Mrs. Peter Smith" is traditionally correct here for formal written correspondence. The rule always was, once her husband dies or she divorces then she's "Mrs. Mary Smith."The spoken address form of "Mrs. Peter Smith" was much more prevalent in the Southern US than elsewhere. I remember some years back when a very prominent lady in South Carolina society, Mrs. Henry Reynolds, was referred to by nearly everyone - even when speaking directly to her - as "Miz Henry." I don't recall her first name, but presumably only her family and VERY close friends might have dared to use it.What are the more "liberated" forms of address now in Germany? Do you use anything for women that doesn't denote a mariage status, like "Ms." is used over here?
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Hi Daividh,
thanks again for the information!Earlier there were two different titles for a woman in Germany, either "Frau" for a married woman or "Fräulein" (little Mrs) for an unmarried woman. On the other hand there was just "Herr" for a married or unmarried man. Nowadays "Fräulein" isn't used anymore. Every woman, married or not, gets the title "Frau".Sometimes you can hear older people still use "Fräulein" because they are used to it, but it's really out of official use now.Regards, Satu
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Most interesting - thank you!Two questions: first, when does one stop being a Madchen and become a Frau (can't do umlauts - sorry); and second, is it possible now to refer to a horizontally and vertically challenged married woman as ein Fraulein?Three, actually! How did this come about - was it a spontaneous feeling among the public that if men were not distinguished by forms of address nor should women be, or was there pressure from women's lib groups, or what? (I'm dealing with a document which keeps on referring to a child undergoing testing as "he", which would have passed unremarked until about 25 years ago but now sounds dreadful; this was the result of the women's movement I believe. How is that done in German - can and do people just use the neuter form for a child?)
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@AnnezaI think, the use of "Frau" for every woman came along with the women's movement in the 1970s, just as the use of male and female forms in addressing large groups ("Liebe Wählerinnen und Wähler" etc.). Unfortunately, there was no "spontaneous feeling among the public" to treat men and women equally, so I presume there was pressure from the women's lib. Today it's considered a question of "politcal correctness" - which came from America, I think.
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@ AnnezaHi Anneza,well, I'll try to answer your questions :-)1) There's no real "borderline" between Mädchen and Frau. Women can be called Mädchen for quite a long time even when they are grown up. Young women in a sports team are often called Mädchen instead of Damen or Frauen even when they are around 30 years old. On the other hand as soon as they have finished school and begin to work (sometimes at the early age of 16) you would officially call her Frau. Very often there is used a kind of mixture in addressing young women, especially when they are younger than 20: They are addressed by their first name and the formal form "Sie" instead of "du". Men are addressed in the same way of course.2) I'm sorry, but I'm not sure if I got your second question right... Anyway - Fräulein isn't used anymore. Sometimes, when you speak to a very little girl, you would say Fräulein to her when you are angry with her, like "Jetzt ist aber genug, mein Fräulein!!!" (That's enough now, lady!). Many years ago a waitress or a shop assistant was usually addressed as Fräulein. And some older people still do so sometimes, but that sounds really unfriendly. But these are the only situations when it's used nowadays.3) I believe that it was like a spontaneous feeling in the public. Equal rights of women are a very important item in Germany. If there were just a few extreme women lib groups insisting to change things like that, it wouldn't work at all.4) A child, whose sex isn't known, is named "es" (it) which is neutral. That's because "das Kind" (child) is a neuter word in German. A "Junge" (boy) is always named "er" (he) because "der Junge" is masculine. "Das Mädchen" (girl) is neuter, but you can say "es" (it) or "sie" (she) when talking about her. Grammatically correct is "es" of course, but colloquially "sie" is used even more often.Well, I hope I could help you?Regards, Satu
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Yikes! Things DO change when you're away from a place for 30 years! I'd sound completely "antediluvianische" if I went back to Germany and tried to babble in public!- Da.
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;-) - I'm sure you're not THAT old!! :-)
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Maybe not Before The Flood, but definitely 30 years ago. I was taking an extended (18 month) break after my first year at university.
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