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ArchivesRe: Harry from Greek?
in reply to a message by Cleveland Kent Evans
Actually there was an exact name in ancient Greek, with the same spelling, 'HARRYS'. That was the name of the sculptor of the Colossus of Rhodes. There was also an Athenian general with the same name. The name means 'attractive'.
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Because Henry was introduced into England by the Normans and its pronunciation was close to "Herry" at that time.
You don't discover the history of a name simply by comparing its present-day sound to that of names in any other language of the world. You have to look at where the name comes from in the historical record. If you go back in early English history, it is quite clear that Harry and Henry were considered the same name because the same person is often referred to by both names. And there is no evidence for the use of Harrys, Haralampos, or any other similar Greek name in medieval England.
You don't discover the history of a name simply by comparing its present-day sound to that of names in any other language of the world. You have to look at where the name comes from in the historical record. If you go back in early English history, it is quite clear that Harry and Henry were considered the same name because the same person is often referred to by both names. And there is no evidence for the use of Harrys, Haralampos, or any other similar Greek name in medieval England.
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Of course I understand and I agree with: "You don't discover the history of a name simply by comparing its present-day sound to that of names in any other language of the world." But we all know that the first things you check in comparative lingustics are phonetics and spelling, since most of the time, especially for old languages there is no evidence! For example, we know that at least 12% of English is from Greek,( 35% according to some linguists), and we dont have any evidence for most of that, but does that mean it is not a fact? Anyway, the facts here are that the English name 'Harry' is closer to the Greek 'Harrys' in both pronunciation and spelling than it is to 'Henry' and it is at least 1500 years older...
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For example, we know that at least 12% of English is from Greek,( 35% according to some linguists), and we dont have any evidence for most of that, but does that mean it is not a fact?
This makes absolutely no sense to me. Whether or not the above %'s are true, if we have no evidence for it, it is NOT a "fact", it's merely a speculation.
The pronunciations of Harry and Henry were IDENTICAL in medieval England; that's the point that experts on the history of names are making when they show the connection between the two. The modern English pronunciation of "Henry" is newer than the pronunciation as "Harry", based on Norman French. It is of no consequence how old "Harrys" is in Greek in deciding whether or not the modern English name Harry is connected with it.
This makes absolutely no sense to me. Whether or not the above %'s are true, if we have no evidence for it, it is NOT a "fact", it's merely a speculation.
The pronunciations of Harry and Henry were IDENTICAL in medieval England; that's the point that experts on the history of names are making when they show the connection between the two. The modern English pronunciation of "Henry" is newer than the pronunciation as "Harry", based on Norman French. It is of no consequence how old "Harrys" is in Greek in deciding whether or not the modern English name Harry is connected with it.
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Firstly I wish to excuse my English...this is responsible for the misunderstanding!
What I meant by "For example, we know that at least 12% of English is from Greek,( 35% according to some linguists), and we dont have any evidence for most of that, but does that mean it is not a fact?"
is that:
Even if we dont have evidence for how some Greek words reached the english language, it doesnt change the fact that indeed they came from Greek, mainly because they were used in Greek long before they reached english (or any other language).
Now, about 'Harrys', I didnt claim in any of my previous posts that the English 'Harry' came from Greek 'Harrys'. All I said is that 'Harry' is indeed closer to Greek 'Harrys' than to Norman 'Henry'...and isn't that a fact???
PS: I had the precious help of an English friend to write this, whose father's name coincidently is Harry and he wished his name came from Greek because in Greek it means 'attractive'! :)
What I meant by "For example, we know that at least 12% of English is from Greek,( 35% according to some linguists), and we dont have any evidence for most of that, but does that mean it is not a fact?"
is that:
Even if we dont have evidence for how some Greek words reached the english language, it doesnt change the fact that indeed they came from Greek, mainly because they were used in Greek long before they reached english (or any other language).
Now, about 'Harrys', I didnt claim in any of my previous posts that the English 'Harry' came from Greek 'Harrys'. All I said is that 'Harry' is indeed closer to Greek 'Harrys' than to Norman 'Henry'...and isn't that a fact???
PS: I had the precious help of an English friend to write this, whose father's name coincidently is Harry and he wished his name came from Greek because in Greek it means 'attractive'! :)
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Now, about 'Harrys', I didnt claim in any of my previous posts that the English 'Harry' came from Greek 'Harrys'. All I said is that 'Harry' is indeed closer to Greek 'Harrys' than to Norman 'Henry'...and isn't that a fact???
No, what Cleveland is saying is that the pronunciation of Harry is the same as the Norman pronunciation of Henry - they were the same name in Norman times. There is no logical or linguistic connection with Harrys.
♦ Chrisell ♦
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us. - J.R.R. Tolkien.
No, what Cleveland is saying is that the pronunciation of Harry is the same as the Norman pronunciation of Henry - they were the same name in Norman times. There is no logical or linguistic connection with Harrys.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us. - J.R.R. Tolkien.
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Indeed, the Greek version has a different etymology than the anglosaxon version.
I contemporary Greece, the fem. name Haris (or Charis)-- meaning "grace" -- is quite polular. Also Haris (male) can be related to Haralampos (or Charalampos), meaning "to shine with happiness".
I contemporary Greece, the fem. name Haris (or Charis)-- meaning "grace" -- is quite polular. Also Haris (male) can be related to Haralampos (or Charalampos), meaning "to shine with happiness".
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I've known quite a few South African Greek Harrys, one of whom was Harry Haramboulos, I think. Complicated surname, anyway! I don't know if Harry was his actual, given name or a nickname based on the surname to make it easier for us non-Greeks.
In my experience, Greek speakers are very considerate that way, happily calling themselves Paul instead of Apostolos etc.
In my experience, Greek speakers are very considerate that way, happily calling themselves Paul instead of Apostolos etc.
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I bet you a souvlaki with all the trimmings that your friends name is Haralampos Haralambous and that he is a Greek Cypriot :)
Actually the names Petros (Peter) and Pavlos (Paul) share the same name day as Apostolos, being all JC's Apostles!
The funniest case of Greeks I know who have reluctantly adopted "user-friendly" names is a friend called Triantafyllos. He works at an international company in Athens, and allows foreign colleagues 'n' customers to call him Frank. We all make sure to incessantly pester him about that :)
Actually the names Petros (Peter) and Pavlos (Paul) share the same name day as Apostolos, being all JC's Apostles!
The funniest case of Greeks I know who have reluctantly adopted "user-friendly" names is a friend called Triantafyllos. He works at an international company in Athens, and allows foreign colleagues 'n' customers to call him Frank. We all make sure to incessantly pester him about that :)
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O_O Frank from Triantafyllos??
I have four relatives by that name, but their anglicised names actually make sense!
I have to tell my brother this... whose name, in fact, is Triantafyllos, but we all call him Trian :) (Can you imagine the horror of the clerk at the very Canadian airport when he and the others with this name checked in, one after the other, with the same first AND last name? :P)
I have four relatives by that name, but their anglicised names actually make sense!
I have to tell my brother this... whose name, in fact, is Triantafyllos, but we all call him Trian :) (Can you imagine the horror of the clerk at the very Canadian airport when he and the others with this name checked in, one after the other, with the same first AND last name? :P)
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Gosh - that is a stretch! Dino from Constantine and Jimmy from Dimitri (or something close) I'm used to, ando Stan from a name that started with Stam- and that I can't remember. Nice guy, though!
When I was growing up in Cape Town a group of Greek businessmen started a football club called, of course, Hellenic. At that time most of the players were of Greek origin, and the crowd used to be in stitches at the announcer's valiant efforts to say their names; it was really fun to watch and listen. Not that I knew better!
When I was growing up in Cape Town a group of Greek businessmen started a football club called, of course, Hellenic. At that time most of the players were of Greek origin, and the crowd used to be in stitches at the announcer's valiant efforts to say their names; it was really fun to watch and listen. Not that I knew better!
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