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ArchivesAtt. Lumia and other Spaniards! XAVIER/JAVIER
I understand that XAVIER and Javier are interchangeable and pronounced the same way in Spanish. Obviously there aren't any Spanish vocabulary words starting in an X nowadays (only loan words from Greek). Was there a similar interchangeability between X and J in former days in Spanish? Or isn't X a Spanish letter at all? All the books say, the name Xavier/Javier goes back to a Basque word (or two rather), so maybe all this appears in Basque only?
Bring light into my darkness!
Andy ;—)
Bring light into my darkness!
Andy ;—)
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Replies
X in Spanish
I think that your question has been answered in Eva's post and my post, but I will compile the informations
A) In Spanish X and J are not interchargeable and are not pronounced the same way.
J is pronounced as [kh]
X is pronounced as [ks] (axioma) or usually as [s] at beginning of word (xilofono).
In old ages, in Spanish, X was pronounced as [sh] (just as nowadays in Basque or Catalan) -nowadays this pronunciation is conserved in some Spanish dialects, but it is not the standard pronunciation, only dialectal, and in some Nahuatl and Mayan names-. Then, the sound evolved to [kh] (XVII century), and after the publication of Real Academia Española rules (1815, in its 8th edition) this sound is only spelled with J, not with X. Exceptions: some surnames (not first names) as Ximénez (also spelled Jiménez and Giménez) or Mexías (also spelled Mejías) and some place names as Oaxaca, México (or Méjico, both forms are correct in Spanish) and Texas (or Tejas, both forms are correct in Spanish).
b) The only correct form of the name in Spanish is Javier. Xavier can be the English, the Catalan or the French form, but not the Spanish form.
c) The words beginning with X (30, more or less) in Spanish are from Greek origin.
d) X is considered a Spanish letter and it is present in words from Latin origin (excusar, excursión) or Greek origin (xilofono). It is very usual because the prefix ex- is very useful (excarcelar, expatriar...) and the preposition ex, too (ex marido, ex ministro...). Some other useful prefixes have the X, as extra.
e) In Basque, X has a sound [sh]. Usually, Basque words and names with X ([sh]) are adapted in Spanish as CH ([ch]): chatarra. But Xabier was incorporated to Spanish before the evolution of X [sh] to X [kh] (and after to J [kh]), then the name experimented the same evolution of other Spanish names or words.
f) The use of Xavier among Spanish speaking people or Hispanic people is for English form influence (they use the English form) or for a misunderstanding (or unknowledge) of the Spanish spelling rules (they think that X and J have the same sound) (and they commit a misspelling).
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
I think that your question has been answered in Eva's post and my post, but I will compile the informations
A) In Spanish X and J are not interchargeable and are not pronounced the same way.
J is pronounced as [kh]
X is pronounced as [ks] (axioma) or usually as [s] at beginning of word (xilofono).
In old ages, in Spanish, X was pronounced as [sh] (just as nowadays in Basque or Catalan) -nowadays this pronunciation is conserved in some Spanish dialects, but it is not the standard pronunciation, only dialectal, and in some Nahuatl and Mayan names-. Then, the sound evolved to [kh] (XVII century), and after the publication of Real Academia Española rules (1815, in its 8th edition) this sound is only spelled with J, not with X. Exceptions: some surnames (not first names) as Ximénez (also spelled Jiménez and Giménez) or Mexías (also spelled Mejías) and some place names as Oaxaca, México (or Méjico, both forms are correct in Spanish) and Texas (or Tejas, both forms are correct in Spanish).
b) The only correct form of the name in Spanish is Javier. Xavier can be the English, the Catalan or the French form, but not the Spanish form.
c) The words beginning with X (30, more or less) in Spanish are from Greek origin.
d) X is considered a Spanish letter and it is present in words from Latin origin (excusar, excursión) or Greek origin (xilofono). It is very usual because the prefix ex- is very useful (excarcelar, expatriar...) and the preposition ex, too (ex marido, ex ministro...). Some other useful prefixes have the X, as extra.
e) In Basque, X has a sound [sh]. Usually, Basque words and names with X ([sh]) are adapted in Spanish as CH ([ch]): chatarra. But Xabier was incorporated to Spanish before the evolution of X [sh] to X [kh] (and after to J [kh]), then the name experimented the same evolution of other Spanish names or words.
f) The use of Xavier among Spanish speaking people or Hispanic people is for English form influence (they use the English form) or for a misunderstanding (or unknowledge) of the Spanish spelling rules (they think that X and J have the same sound) (and they commit a misspelling).
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
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Now that I blew it – is there anybody left to answer my question (or rather what has been left unanswered)? Thanks!
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In a similar vain, I always wondered why Greek words starting with an X...
...are pronounced with a Z in English! Its a bloody Xylophone, not a Zylophone, for cryin' out loud! I wonder if this could be a case of Xenophobia (*not* Zenophobia)?
...are pronounced with a Z in English! Its a bloody Xylophone, not a Zylophone, for cryin' out loud! I wonder if this could be a case of Xenophobia (*not* Zenophobia)?
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I have no idea what the history behind that is -- but how is initial "X" pronounced in Greek? Like the English "ks" or something else?
This message was edited 11/18/2005, 5:26 PM
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Never call a Catalan a Spaniard! :) n/m
Happiness can be found even in the darkest of times if only one remembers to turn on the lights
~J.K. Rowling
Happiness can be found even in the darkest of times if only one remembers to turn on the lights
~J.K. Rowling
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Sorry about that! There is always more to learn.
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Well, I'm Catalan, like Lumia.
Xavier and Javier are not pronunced the same:
Xavier, Catalan form of the Basque Xabier: shu-bih-eh, with a closed "e", as in café, I guess.
Javier, the Spanish form: hah-bi-ehr, with a hard "h" sound, the same "e" as in Catalan and a sounding "r".
They both come from the Basque, and although I don't know it, I think Xavier is closer to the original Xabier than Javier.
But, wait for Lumia, she always has brilliant answers with surprising facts, hasn't she? ;-D
EVA
Xavier and Javier are not pronunced the same:
Xavier, Catalan form of the Basque Xabier: shu-bih-eh, with a closed "e", as in café, I guess.
Javier, the Spanish form: hah-bi-ehr, with a hard "h" sound, the same "e" as in Catalan and a sounding "r".
They both come from the Basque, and although I don't know it, I think Xavier is closer to the original Xabier than Javier.
But, wait for Lumia, she always has brilliant answers with surprising facts, hasn't she? ;-D
EVA
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My answer isn't going to be so onomastically excellent, but I'd like to contribute what I know nonetheless. I have lots of family in Ecuador, and there are Xaviers pronounced Javier everywhere. Tons. Recently born, too. This was actually going to be my middle name if I were a boy. I have never been able to distinguish the first sound from the normal J sound in Spanish (i.e. an h sound).
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Spelling of first names in Spanish-speaking countries
In Spanish-speaking countries, it is very usual to find first names spelled incorrectly (Gustabo, Migel...) and English (Joshua, Michel...) or pseudo-English (Deici, Leidi...) first names.
And it is usual, too, to choose the English form of a first name instead of the Spanish form. (If you are interested about the phenomenon of the use of foreign names, I can search for some links of articles about this, because it is a subject very annotated by Spanish linguist and Spanish names experts.)
But this doesn't mean that this forms are legit Spanish names. There is a lot of Joshuas in Spanish-speaking countries, but the Spanish form is Josué, Joshua still be a foreign form (an English form).
Nowadays, the only correct form of the name in Spanish is Javier, with J and V.
Remind: in Spanish, first names are subject to RAE (Academy) spelling rules and the possible graphical variants of a first name are very limited. So, in Spanish (as in other languages as Basque, Catalan, etc.), there are some correct forms of names and some incorrect forms.
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
In Spanish-speaking countries, it is very usual to find first names spelled incorrectly (Gustabo, Migel...) and English (Joshua, Michel...) or pseudo-English (Deici, Leidi...) first names.
And it is usual, too, to choose the English form of a first name instead of the Spanish form. (If you are interested about the phenomenon of the use of foreign names, I can search for some links of articles about this, because it is a subject very annotated by Spanish linguist and Spanish names experts.)
But this doesn't mean that this forms are legit Spanish names. There is a lot of Joshuas in Spanish-speaking countries, but the Spanish form is Josué, Joshua still be a foreign form (an English form).
Nowadays, the only correct form of the name in Spanish is Javier, with J and V.
Remind: in Spanish, first names are subject to RAE (Academy) spelling rules and the possible graphical variants of a first name are very limited. So, in Spanish (as in other languages as Basque, Catalan, etc.), there are some correct forms of names and some incorrect forms.
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
This message was edited 11/17/2005, 7:37 AM
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Etxeberri: from etxe, "house", and berri, "new".
Etcheverry is a French adaptation of the surname Etxeberri.
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
Etcheverry is a French adaptation of the surname Etxeberri.
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
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How do you pronouce "Etxeberri"?
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Thanks to both of you!
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et cheh BEH ree
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Pronunciation remarks
In Spanish, the pronunciation is khah-BIEHR, with a diphthong. The sound of Spanish J is usually represented with a KH and it's more or less the same sound of CH in German or in Scottish "loch".
In Basque (Xabier) is pronounced shah-bee-EHR.
In some old Spanish documents, Javier is spelled Xavier (or Xabier or Javier), because some centuries ago the X had a sound [kh] (it is the same raison of some X in place names as México, Oaxaca, or in surnames as Ximénez, Mexías). But nowadays, the only correct form of the name in Spanish is Javier (orthographical RAE rules order).
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
In Spanish, the pronunciation is khah-BIEHR, with a diphthong. The sound of Spanish J is usually represented with a KH and it's more or less the same sound of CH in German or in Scottish "loch".
In Basque (Xabier) is pronounced shah-bee-EHR.
In some old Spanish documents, Javier is spelled Xavier (or Xabier or Javier), because some centuries ago the X had a sound [kh] (it is the same raison of some X in place names as México, Oaxaca, or in surnames as Ximénez, Mexías). But nowadays, the only correct form of the name in Spanish is Javier (orthographical RAE rules order).
Lumia
http://onomastica.mailcatala.com
1
Thanks for the time being!
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