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in reply to a message by Ivayla
'nobyl' is somehow an Eastern European version of the English 'noble', which is of course nonsense.
For GTB's benefit: The cherno connection may be significant but we can't know that unless we know the ethnic background of the name, and as the poster thought an Eastern European origin was unlikely that similarity may be a co-incidence too.
:-)
For GTB's benefit: The cherno connection may be significant but we can't know that unless we know the ethnic background of the name, and as the poster thought an Eastern European origin was unlikely that similarity may be a co-incidence too.
:-)
This message was edited 11/2/2004, 5:27 PM
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Replies
Yes, I did do blind guesses combined with unclear memories, but the word "noble" is not unique to English, if "Zeus", "dios", "Odin" (or another one of that mythos' gods) and "deva" mean the same why couldn't "nobyl" be likewise a variant for "noble"? you may say it's wrong, but not that it's nonsense... after all, words have not crossed languages in a single static era of the past but continue to move from language to language and it could be pretty recent... Now, I admit I made a mistake, I'm human and my memory betrayed me... Just don't say it's nonsense with that much of certainty.
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What's the deal?
There is no need to be so fighsty (spl?) about others telling you that your assumptions are wrong and make no sense. People have been trying to tell you (for a while now) that this is a FACTS message board. People in here try to be as accurate as possible with their information and replies, as BtN is a very reliable source and we would like to keep it that way. We don't do wild guesses or relay on our faulting memories, we have the luxury of professional linguists and etymologists, specialised in specific areas, that are very careful with their sources and knowledge in order to help out inquirers. That doesn't mean that the less prepared in such as areas (like myself) are not allowed to post requested information, but when we are wrong, we get corrected and everyone is happy. So, if you are wrong, expect the pros' to tell you so. It doesn't mean that they don't like you... Also, expect "hot debates" and to be sometimes, laughed at, when you make a human mistake, such as misspellings, grammar issues or mess-ups. This is a serious but very relaxed board. We all like to tease each other and the humour level is not for wimps... This is quite a fun and funny place to post on, once you get the hang of it, so try to keep up ;op
There is no need to be so fighsty (spl?) about others telling you that your assumptions are wrong and make no sense. People have been trying to tell you (for a while now) that this is a FACTS message board. People in here try to be as accurate as possible with their information and replies, as BtN is a very reliable source and we would like to keep it that way. We don't do wild guesses or relay on our faulting memories, we have the luxury of professional linguists and etymologists, specialised in specific areas, that are very careful with their sources and knowledge in order to help out inquirers. That doesn't mean that the less prepared in such as areas (like myself) are not allowed to post requested information, but when we are wrong, we get corrected and everyone is happy. So, if you are wrong, expect the pros' to tell you so. It doesn't mean that they don't like you... Also, expect "hot debates" and to be sometimes, laughed at, when you make a human mistake, such as misspellings, grammar issues or mess-ups. This is a serious but very relaxed board. We all like to tease each other and the humour level is not for wimps... This is quite a fun and funny place to post on, once you get the hang of it, so try to keep up ;op
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I have no problem with being told I'm wrong, but saying it's nonsense... Well... I know the sense of what I say, accuracy (that is whether it has strong factual back-ups or not) and sense (that is whether it follows basic rules of linguistic logic or not) are different things, I've got no problems with being told I'm wrong, but saying it's nonsense... That's different... If I had said something like:
"Disney" means "this ney" 'cause "dis" and "this" err... mmm... well, they sound alike and I want to and "ney" err... mmm.. "ney" means not because when I'm among friends if someone says "ney" you understand he/she is saying "no"
I can get that like illogical and if I had said something like that I would accept being told that I've spoken nonsense... But I've shown that althought possibly mistaken I've never been ilogical.
"Disney" means "this ney" 'cause "dis" and "this" err... mmm... well, they sound alike and I want to and "ney" err... mmm.. "ney" means not because when I'm among friends if someone says "ney" you understand he/she is saying "no"
I can get that like illogical and if I had said something like that I would accept being told that I've spoken nonsense... But I've shown that althought possibly mistaken I've never been ilogical.
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HA ha HA...
...Lo que Ud. diga
...Lo que Ud. diga
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PD: More on accuracy (y ya no me importa si se rien)
If I make blind guesses which I know might be wrong it's not because I want to confuse or anything like that... Through blind guesses (and I call them blind just because I use more logic, like a blind man with a guiding stick, than knowledge, that is, a person with "full" senses) obscure meanings are usually discovered... Anyway, I put myself in the place of the person who asks and I realize he/she needs a logical answer as soon as possible... Maybe I can't offer much accuracy but I offer a fast logical possibility with the warning "this is a blind guess, more searching still needed" so if he/she never gets the accurate answer he/she can at least enjoy the "premio consuelo" that is, the prize given so the failure is not suffered as much. My posts tend to do this, comfort the searches of the searchers... It's up to Mike Campbell to make the final decision when he sees it's time to move some names from the forum (which are never accurate in themselves) to the database (which, althought pretty accurate) is still debatable... No te enojes conmigo ni me subestimes, sé lo que digo.
If I make blind guesses which I know might be wrong it's not because I want to confuse or anything like that... Through blind guesses (and I call them blind just because I use more logic, like a blind man with a guiding stick, than knowledge, that is, a person with "full" senses) obscure meanings are usually discovered... Anyway, I put myself in the place of the person who asks and I realize he/she needs a logical answer as soon as possible... Maybe I can't offer much accuracy but I offer a fast logical possibility with the warning "this is a blind guess, more searching still needed" so if he/she never gets the accurate answer he/she can at least enjoy the "premio consuelo" that is, the prize given so the failure is not suffered as much. My posts tend to do this, comfort the searches of the searchers... It's up to Mike Campbell to make the final decision when he sees it's time to move some names from the forum (which are never accurate in themselves) to the database (which, althought pretty accurate) is still debatable... No te enojes conmigo ni me subestimes, sé lo que digo.
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Pero si el que se enoja eres tú...
(y ya no me importa si se rien) --> that's the spirit!
No one is underestimating you and of course, no one is mad at you. It's just that in this board, things will get analysed until they don't exist anymore...
(y ya no me importa si se rien) --> that's the spirit!
No one is underestimating you and of course, no one is mad at you. It's just that in this board, things will get analysed until they don't exist anymore...
This message was edited 11/2/2004, 8:21 PM
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Well, actually . . .
I studied Linguistics at a university level, so I can be pretty certain about most of my linguistic knowledge. The word noble could indeed be transcribed into other languages, but in this case it is nonsense because:
a) 'nobyl' is a highly unlikely form for it to take; and
b) the 'no' in 'nobyl' is part of the element 'cherno', so the second element is 'byl' not 'nobyl'.
As this is a facts board the rest of us try not to make blind guesses unless we have some solid evidence to back them up.
I studied Linguistics at a university level, so I can be pretty certain about most of my linguistic knowledge. The word noble could indeed be transcribed into other languages, but in this case it is nonsense because:
a) 'nobyl' is a highly unlikely form for it to take; and
b) the 'no' in 'nobyl' is part of the element 'cherno', so the second element is 'byl' not 'nobyl'.
As this is a facts board the rest of us try not to make blind guesses unless we have some solid evidence to back them up.
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As I said
"a highly unlikely form for it to take"
that is just YOUR opinion;
"the 'no' in 'nobyl' is part of the element 'cherno', so the second element is 'byl' not 'nobyl'"
I recognized that the second element was indeed "byl" (grass) and therefore admited my mistake (just due to probabilities), but there are cases that when a suffix and a preffix are joined 'cause they are joined by and identical syllable they are mixed together and the doubled syllable is reduced to just one, or if they are joined by the same vowel the extra vowel dissappears ("de el perro" are joined to make "del perro", which means "of the dog" if you wonder; but it really does not matters, it's just an example for you linguistics' wiz)...
Furthermore, even experts at the end do nothing but guess, it's just that they add more "knowledge" which is in itself a very debatable thing but... you studied linguistics so... From your point of view... You can't say a word on epistemology to a philosopher so... I give life without final declarations and leave others to vivisect my posts; so say they are wrong and say why if you think you have an appropiate reason, but do not label them as "nonsense" just because "your degree in linguistics is your license to kill [options]"... You tell others about being an adult and how to behave and make me remember those little brats who went around bossing the smaller kids saying they (the smaller kids) had to obey them (the brats) if they wanted to be real adults but were they (the brats) themself nothing but a childish mockery... You say you are not fuzzy and you are not rude but, look at yourself... behave... You will be treated the way you treat. Bye. (Sorry for my imperfect English in both grammar and ortography, I'm kinda rusty)
"a highly unlikely form for it to take"
that is just YOUR opinion;
"the 'no' in 'nobyl' is part of the element 'cherno', so the second element is 'byl' not 'nobyl'"
I recognized that the second element was indeed "byl" (grass) and therefore admited my mistake (just due to probabilities), but there are cases that when a suffix and a preffix are joined 'cause they are joined by and identical syllable they are mixed together and the doubled syllable is reduced to just one, or if they are joined by the same vowel the extra vowel dissappears ("de el perro" are joined to make "del perro", which means "of the dog" if you wonder; but it really does not matters, it's just an example for you linguistics' wiz)...
Furthermore, even experts at the end do nothing but guess, it's just that they add more "knowledge" which is in itself a very debatable thing but... you studied linguistics so... From your point of view... You can't say a word on epistemology to a philosopher so... I give life without final declarations and leave others to vivisect my posts; so say they are wrong and say why if you think you have an appropiate reason, but do not label them as "nonsense" just because "your degree in linguistics is your license to kill [options]"... You tell others about being an adult and how to behave and make me remember those little brats who went around bossing the smaller kids saying they (the smaller kids) had to obey them (the brats) if they wanted to be real adults but were they (the brats) themself nothing but a childish mockery... You say you are not fuzzy and you are not rude but, look at yourself... behave... You will be treated the way you treat. Bye. (Sorry for my imperfect English in both grammar and ortography, I'm kinda rusty)
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Oh, for goodness' sake . . .
"a highly unlikely form for it to take"
that is just YOUR opinion;
Yes, but it is opinion made on the basis of solid knowledge of English to Slavic transliteration.
"the 'no' in 'nobyl' is part of the element 'cherno', so the second element is 'byl' not 'nobyl'"
I recognized that the second element was indeed "byl" (grass) and therefore admited my mistake (just due to probabilities),
Your posts are too unclear to assume that the querying poster would catch that detail. It had to be clarified.
but there are cases that when a suffix and a preffix are joined 'cause they are joined by and identical syllable they are mixed together and the doubled syllable is reduced to just one, or if they are joined by the same vowel the extra vowel dissappears ("de el perro" are joined to make "del perro", which means "of the dog" if you wonder; but it really does not matters, it's just an example for you linguistics' wiz)...
It does happen in some languages, yes. But the two pieces of evidence work together, and when you consider all of the information, your explanation simply doesn't fit
Furthermore, even experts at the end do nothing but guess, it's just that they add more "knowledge" which is in itself a very debatable thing but...
No. Professionals do not "guess". They assemble facts and knowledge which may be both uncertain and debatable, and present them as a "theory" or "estimate". A "guess" is based on no evidence at all, which is highly unprofessional. Furthermore, they don't publish their findings until they're sure - ie, they don't "think aloud" the way you seem to in your posts.
you studied linguistics so... From your point of view... You can't say a word on epistemology to a philosopher so...
Don't put words into peoples' mouths. I have studied linguistics, therefore I am more likely to be right about a purely linguistic topic. I am open to being wrong, if the person challenging my knowledge has convincing evidence. Which you NEVER have, I might add.
"a highly unlikely form for it to take"
that is just YOUR opinion;
Yes, but it is opinion made on the basis of solid knowledge of English to Slavic transliteration.
"the 'no' in 'nobyl' is part of the element 'cherno', so the second element is 'byl' not 'nobyl'"
I recognized that the second element was indeed "byl" (grass) and therefore admited my mistake (just due to probabilities),
Your posts are too unclear to assume that the querying poster would catch that detail. It had to be clarified.
but there are cases that when a suffix and a preffix are joined 'cause they are joined by and identical syllable they are mixed together and the doubled syllable is reduced to just one, or if they are joined by the same vowel the extra vowel dissappears ("de el perro" are joined to make "del perro", which means "of the dog" if you wonder; but it really does not matters, it's just an example for you linguistics' wiz)...
It does happen in some languages, yes. But the two pieces of evidence work together, and when you consider all of the information, your explanation simply doesn't fit
Furthermore, even experts at the end do nothing but guess, it's just that they add more "knowledge" which is in itself a very debatable thing but...
No. Professionals do not "guess". They assemble facts and knowledge which may be both uncertain and debatable, and present them as a "theory" or "estimate". A "guess" is based on no evidence at all, which is highly unprofessional. Furthermore, they don't publish their findings until they're sure - ie, they don't "think aloud" the way you seem to in your posts.
you studied linguistics so... From your point of view... You can't say a word on epistemology to a philosopher so...
Don't put words into peoples' mouths. I have studied linguistics, therefore I am more likely to be right about a purely linguistic topic. I am open to being wrong, if the person challenging my knowledge has convincing evidence. Which you NEVER have, I might add.
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could you please add in this page just what preffix and suffix mean?
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This is not a book for which I'm being paid for, so if I dare to think aloud is because I'm here to try to help others in the way I've been myself helped... ok?
"I give life without final declarations and leave others to vivisect my posts;
I suppose you mean dissection, since your post is not a live animal"
Yes, that's what I meant, but I used a metaphore... you know what that is? don't ya? vivisect has it's own cogante in Spanish so I do know what it means.
I wont bore me more about your "understanding" of what "non-sense" and "blind guessing" is.
"Hmm - you seem to think that by insulting me you can get out of being corrected. I have been on this site for over a year"
Nope, I do not use such methods as the "ad hominem" falacy, I was just telling you to think about the way you have treated me, 'cause you haev insulted first... And I've been here more than that... Just recently I began using my name because just recently I felt I was ready to hold my position on my name and earn it a reputation... But I get to find your quarrelsome manners and my reputation gets onto the court immediatly...
"I do share the role of maintaining the standards of expected behaviour from posters."
That's what I mean about "bossing around", then you call other people "trolls"
"A number of other people have told you the same thing" Only you and Magia have directed your comments against me.
"rather than fitting in with the accepted behavioural mores at that site."
Read yourself, that is a nazi speaking... My behaviour is logical, nothing more and nothing less... Tradition was made for people who wanted to be free of the duty of thinking logically about what is right or wrong.
"Quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of people asking honest questions on this board and getting in response one of your chaotic, inaccurate, unreadable, unhelpful, obtuse, ambiguous and above all ANNOYING posts."
Quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of your bossy behaviour likewise, and of your RUDE AND ANNOYING yelling and annoyment.
"I give life without final declarations and leave others to vivisect my posts;
I suppose you mean dissection, since your post is not a live animal"
Yes, that's what I meant, but I used a metaphore... you know what that is? don't ya? vivisect has it's own cogante in Spanish so I do know what it means.
I wont bore me more about your "understanding" of what "non-sense" and "blind guessing" is.
"Hmm - you seem to think that by insulting me you can get out of being corrected. I have been on this site for over a year"
Nope, I do not use such methods as the "ad hominem" falacy, I was just telling you to think about the way you have treated me, 'cause you haev insulted first... And I've been here more than that... Just recently I began using my name because just recently I felt I was ready to hold my position on my name and earn it a reputation... But I get to find your quarrelsome manners and my reputation gets onto the court immediatly...
"I do share the role of maintaining the standards of expected behaviour from posters."
That's what I mean about "bossing around", then you call other people "trolls"
"A number of other people have told you the same thing" Only you and Magia have directed your comments against me.
"rather than fitting in with the accepted behavioural mores at that site."
Read yourself, that is a nazi speaking... My behaviour is logical, nothing more and nothing less... Tradition was made for people who wanted to be free of the duty of thinking logically about what is right or wrong.
"Quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of people asking honest questions on this board and getting in response one of your chaotic, inaccurate, unreadable, unhelpful, obtuse, ambiguous and above all ANNOYING posts."
Quite frankly, I'm sick and tired of your bossy behaviour likewise, and of your RUDE AND ANNOYING yelling and annoyment.
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I am sorry you have seen my attempts to communicate with you as "quarrelsome" and "bossy".
I see your behaviour as "quarrelsome" and "difficult", so don't think you're the unqualified good guy.
I have never called you a troll and I do not think you are one.
I have asked you to change your posting method because I am concerned that people might get confusing or inaccurate information from your posts.
I have also tried to point out that I would like to be able to access your etymological knowledge, but that I can't understand you when you write the way you do.
Rather than responding positively to my posts, you have a) become offended and b) ignored my advice. This, I admit, has led me to phrase my attempts in increasingly strong language, which is why we find ourselves arguing today.
This board is where we discuss the meanings, history, popularity, usage etc of names. But people are expected to have facts ready and waiting to support their opinions. I appreciate that you often do have facts that you are trying to share, but they get lost in the fanciful speculation and general mess of your posts.
Now do you understand where I'm coming from? If not, tell me that you don't understand, don't throw childish insults around.
I really want to be able to have good, friendly, factual discussions with you - it sounds like you have a lot of etymological knowledge to share. But you won't let me, you just keep posting the same way so that I can't understand you or communicate with you. Of course I'm upset and frustrated!
Please, if you reply to this, reply to what I say, not to your own ideas.
I see your behaviour as "quarrelsome" and "difficult", so don't think you're the unqualified good guy.
I have never called you a troll and I do not think you are one.
I have asked you to change your posting method because I am concerned that people might get confusing or inaccurate information from your posts.
I have also tried to point out that I would like to be able to access your etymological knowledge, but that I can't understand you when you write the way you do.
Rather than responding positively to my posts, you have a) become offended and b) ignored my advice. This, I admit, has led me to phrase my attempts in increasingly strong language, which is why we find ourselves arguing today.
This board is where we discuss the meanings, history, popularity, usage etc of names. But people are expected to have facts ready and waiting to support their opinions. I appreciate that you often do have facts that you are trying to share, but they get lost in the fanciful speculation and general mess of your posts.
Now do you understand where I'm coming from? If not, tell me that you don't understand, don't throw childish insults around.
I really want to be able to have good, friendly, factual discussions with you - it sounds like you have a lot of etymological knowledge to share. But you won't let me, you just keep posting the same way so that I can't understand you or communicate with you. Of course I'm upset and frustrated!
Please, if you reply to this, reply to what I say, not to your own ideas.
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Mutual effort
Well... Now I see your point... But see my point; I express myself, as best as I can, with a language I'm getting rusty with, which does work in the "behind the surname" forum without getting these answers about my ambiguity... The more I ponder on my proposals the more hard they seem to get for understanding... So I will try just giving the facts I'm relying upon and I will let the logical linking for you, then I will expect your answer, be it a "that's a good possibily [+/- but...]" or a "it's not pertinent because...". It's just that I find disagreeable something like "it's nonsense" when I do know that "I have assembled facts and knowledge [which may be both uncertain and debatable]" that I've earned over the years of being a lover of etymology (and mythology, and literature, and etc.)... Now do you udnerstand me? My problem is not being told I'm wrong, it's the way I'm told I'm wrong... That's all... Now... Both must give our own effort... Ok?
Well... Now I see your point... But see my point; I express myself, as best as I can, with a language I'm getting rusty with, which does work in the "behind the surname" forum without getting these answers about my ambiguity... The more I ponder on my proposals the more hard they seem to get for understanding... So I will try just giving the facts I'm relying upon and I will let the logical linking for you, then I will expect your answer, be it a "that's a good possibily [+/- but...]" or a "it's not pertinent because...". It's just that I find disagreeable something like "it's nonsense" when I do know that "I have assembled facts and knowledge [which may be both uncertain and debatable]" that I've earned over the years of being a lover of etymology (and mythology, and literature, and etc.)... Now do you udnerstand me? My problem is not being told I'm wrong, it's the way I'm told I'm wrong... That's all... Now... Both must give our own effort... Ok?
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Ok, I think we're on the same page now :-)
Sorry about the "nonsense" thing - I was getting frustrated, and I'm doing an annoying job at work, too, which didn't help my mood.
Sorry about the "nonsense" thing - I was getting frustrated, and I'm doing an annoying job at work, too, which didn't help my mood.
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:D "Hablando se entiende la gente" claims a Spanish Saying :D
I will let Magia make the translation, hope things will go on better from now on... "borron y cuenta nueva" (again, the honour is for Magia)... Bye.
I will let Magia make the translation, hope things will go on better from now on... "borron y cuenta nueva" (again, the honour is for Magia)... Bye.
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My pleasure...
Let's make a fresh start , then :o)
Let's make a fresh start , then :o)
This message was edited 11/3/2004, 6:57 AM
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Lol . . .
I babelfished it (www.altavista.com/babelfish/) and it gave me a very garbled answer! But I got the gist of it, anyway.
I babelfished it (www.altavista.com/babelfish/) and it gave me a very garbled answer! But I got the gist of it, anyway.
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Chrisell, please let me know when you are done "vivisecting" these posts...
HM hm HM hm HM hm... HA ha :ox (trying hard not to make to much noise...)
Ps.: GTB... just a friendly scam...I told you to watch it...
HM hm HM hm HM hm... HA ha :ox (trying hard not to make to much noise...)
Ps.: GTB... just a friendly scam...I told you to watch it...
This message was edited 11/2/2004, 8:18 PM
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:-D I couldn't resist that one . . .
. . . although I shouldn't have, it was a shot "below the belt" (pun intended) as his English isn't perfect.
I'm done now. I really hoped that he'd clean up his posts and make them understandable contributions to the BtN knowledge base, but it looks like I'm only going to get growled at for trying to help, so his knowledge will have to stay inaccessible. I'll ignore him from now on. *sigh*
. . . although I shouldn't have, it was a shot "below the belt" (pun intended) as his English isn't perfect.
I'm done now. I really hoped that he'd clean up his posts and make them understandable contributions to the BtN knowledge base, but it looks like I'm only going to get growled at for trying to help, so his knowledge will have to stay inaccessible. I'll ignore him from now on. *sigh*
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You guys make me laugh :oD
No hard feelings.
No hard feelings.
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