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ArchivesRe: Actually, Alan...
in reply to a message by S Llywarch
I don't think you quite understood what Merriment meant:
"If it was 'non-existent', how's it 'reintroduced'?"
She meant that it is not found in Wales until it is introduced by the Normans.
"You claim it is a Breton name; where did Breton come from?"
Breton is the language spoken in Brittany, a coastal area of France. It is a Celtic language related to Welsh.
"Where do you get the info that the river(s) where called Alan and not Alun?"
Merriment didn't say that the rivers were called Alan not Alun; she said that, during the mediaeval period, parents had been using Alan as a given name, but not the river name, Alun.
"If it was 'non-existent', how's it 'reintroduced'?"
She meant that it is not found in Wales until it is introduced by the Normans.
"You claim it is a Breton name; where did Breton come from?"
Breton is the language spoken in Brittany, a coastal area of France. It is a Celtic language related to Welsh.
"Where do you get the info that the river(s) where called Alan and not Alun?"
Merriment didn't say that the rivers were called Alan not Alun; she said that, during the mediaeval period, parents had been using Alan as a given name, but not the river name, Alun.
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Replies
Thanks Chrisell...
The Breton name Alan is well-established in both Brittany (900 on) and England (1100-1400). There is no record of a name Alan or Alun being given to a Welshman prior to 1100. It must be assumed that the river name Alun represents an early personal name, not recorded as a personal name. But it is the Breton Alan that we find in Wales after 1100, and it is this name that becomes the modern Alun, probably influenced by (but not deriving from) the river name. And yes, Breton settlers were originally the from the same people that later became 'Welsh' and 'Cornish', but obviously the resettlement of Brittany happened before the separation of the three languages.
The Breton name Alan is well-established in both Brittany (900 on) and England (1100-1400). There is no record of a name Alan or Alun being given to a Welshman prior to 1100. It must be assumed that the river name Alun represents an early personal name, not recorded as a personal name. But it is the Breton Alan that we find in Wales after 1100, and it is this name that becomes the modern Alun, probably influenced by (but not deriving from) the river name. And yes, Breton settlers were originally the from the same people that later became 'Welsh' and 'Cornish', but obviously the resettlement of Brittany happened before the separation of the three languages.
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Back to the begining...
Chrisell: I think my definition of the word reintroduced is different to yours. You are saying that Reintroduced means the same as Introduced???
Chrisell: I know what Breton is. I wasn't sure if Merriment knew the difference between Breton and Brythoneg.
Merriment - I stand corrected and appologise - you did not say the rivers where called Alan.
"but obviously the resettlement of Brittany happened before the separation of the three languages"
- My point exactly.
"It's non-existent as a name in Wales until it is reintroduced by the the Normans"
- This doesn't prove anything! What I think you might not understand is that the 'Welsh'( a derogatory name given to us by the angl-saxons) lived all over the British Isles prior to the anglo-saxon invasion.
'Dyfyr apAlun Dyfed' Mabinogi?
River in Dyfed called the Alun. Dyfyr the son of Alun Dyfed.
Chrisell: I think my definition of the word reintroduced is different to yours. You are saying that Reintroduced means the same as Introduced???
Chrisell: I know what Breton is. I wasn't sure if Merriment knew the difference between Breton and Brythoneg.
Merriment - I stand corrected and appologise - you did not say the rivers where called Alan.
"but obviously the resettlement of Brittany happened before the separation of the three languages"
- My point exactly.
"It's non-existent as a name in Wales until it is reintroduced by the the Normans"
- This doesn't prove anything! What I think you might not understand is that the 'Welsh'( a derogatory name given to us by the angl-saxons) lived all over the British Isles prior to the anglo-saxon invasion.
'Dyfyr apAlun Dyfed' Mabinogi?
River in Dyfed called the Alun. Dyfyr the son of Alun Dyfed.
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have PhD. in this subject...
..and susepct it may be you who is confused.
If there is a name ('Bob', say) and it is used in the year 300, and then 1200 years later in the year 1500, the name 'Bob' is recorded, it does not follow that they are the same name. They are just the same spelling.
In this case, 'Alun' (early) is a river name from a personal name. 'Alun' (late) is an adaptation of the name Alan, from the Breton 'Alan', influenced (possibly) by the river name Alun, but not deriving from it (sorry).
Dyfyr ap Alun Dyfed is from the 'Dream of Rhonabwy'. Which is a medieval text believed to have been written no earlier than the 12th century. E.g. after the arrival of all the Norman Alans. It's also a satire - most of the names aren't 'real', they are intentionally 'aged', and a tad 'mythical'. There are probably other river and place names in there - I haven't looked at the text recently.
I fail to see the point behind your introduction of the fact that the Welsh were living all over the British Isles until the Anglo-Saxon invasion (600-800ish), when the name 'Alun' is not recorded anywhere (England, Scotland or Wales) except in the river name from the earliest records (including inscriptions, from about 300AD on) and 'Alan' is not recorded until after the arrival of the Normans in 1066.
Perhaps you'd like to explain how this is relevant?
..and susepct it may be you who is confused.
If there is a name ('Bob', say) and it is used in the year 300, and then 1200 years later in the year 1500, the name 'Bob' is recorded, it does not follow that they are the same name. They are just the same spelling.
In this case, 'Alun' (early) is a river name from a personal name. 'Alun' (late) is an adaptation of the name Alan, from the Breton 'Alan', influenced (possibly) by the river name Alun, but not deriving from it (sorry).
Dyfyr ap Alun Dyfed is from the 'Dream of Rhonabwy'. Which is a medieval text believed to have been written no earlier than the 12th century. E.g. after the arrival of all the Norman Alans. It's also a satire - most of the names aren't 'real', they are intentionally 'aged', and a tad 'mythical'. There are probably other river and place names in there - I haven't looked at the text recently.
I fail to see the point behind your introduction of the fact that the Welsh were living all over the British Isles until the Anglo-Saxon invasion (600-800ish), when the name 'Alun' is not recorded anywhere (England, Scotland or Wales) except in the river name from the earliest records (including inscriptions, from about 300AD on) and 'Alan' is not recorded until after the arrival of the Normans in 1066.
Perhaps you'd like to explain how this is relevant?
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Well done on your PhD.
"In this case, 'Alun' (early) is a river name from a personal name."
This may show that I'm not educated to a PhD standard, but are you saying that Alun (early) was a personal name?
"'Alun' (late) is an adaptation of the name Alan, from the Breton 'Alan', influenced (possibly) by the river name Alun, but not deriving from it (sorry)."
Why influenced (possibly)?
"Perhaps you'd like to explain how this is relevant?" :
Breton evolved from Brythoneg(early Welsh), along with modern Welsh and Cornish, so how is it not feasable that the name Alun changed to Alan when the Britons/Welsh first moved to Brittany? From my knowlege of Brezhoneg (Breton), a lot of the words and names vary (from Welsh/Brythoneg) only with different letters 'a' changes to 'e', 'u' or 'y' or vice versa.
"In this case, 'Alun' (early) is a river name from a personal name."
This may show that I'm not educated to a PhD standard, but are you saying that Alun (early) was a personal name?
"'Alun' (late) is an adaptation of the name Alan, from the Breton 'Alan', influenced (possibly) by the river name Alun, but not deriving from it (sorry)."
Why influenced (possibly)?
"Perhaps you'd like to explain how this is relevant?" :
Breton evolved from Brythoneg(early Welsh), along with modern Welsh and Cornish, so how is it not feasable that the name Alun changed to Alan when the Britons/Welsh first moved to Brittany? From my knowlege of Brezhoneg (Breton), a lot of the words and names vary (from Welsh/Brythoneg) only with different letters 'a' changes to 'e', 'u' or 'y' or vice versa.
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According to river name specialists, many early Welsh river names come from personal names. Alun may be one; I don't have a copy of 'Enwau Afonydd a Nentydd' to hand, but that's probably the best place to look it up.
Why influenced (possibly)? Because names tend towards similar spellings elsewhere, and names are easily confused. Many modern Welsh parents have chosen place names as given names for their children, and some may be giving the name Alun through confusion with the river name, not realising that Alun is a well-established Welsh form of Alan.
Not relevant - because early sound changes are fairly predictable, and u (ih) to a (ah) has no parallels (that I know of) in other Welsh and Breton names i.e. there are no other native Breton names recorded in the Middle Ages with an a in them, for which there are recorded native Welsh equivalents with an u (ih) in them.
Why influenced (possibly)? Because names tend towards similar spellings elsewhere, and names are easily confused. Many modern Welsh parents have chosen place names as given names for their children, and some may be giving the name Alun through confusion with the river name, not realising that Alun is a well-established Welsh form of Alan.
Not relevant - because early sound changes are fairly predictable, and u (ih) to a (ah) has no parallels (that I know of) in other Welsh and Breton names i.e. there are no other native Breton names recorded in the Middle Ages with an a in them, for which there are recorded native Welsh equivalents with an u (ih) in them.
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"Many modern Welsh parents have chosen place names as given names for their children, and some may be giving the name Alun through confusion with the river name, not realising that Alun is a well-established Welsh form of Alan."
Sorry Merriment, but you are not making any sense. You admit it is an old Brythoneg name, but then you say us modern Cymry are confused; well after speaking to you I sure am!!!
I have called my son Alun would you like to tell me why?
But before you do, I'd just like to tell you, my father was called Alun, as was his grandfather, his grandfathers grandfather etc. Bit of a family tradition. (I am under no confusion about the name.)
Would you like to tell me that my surname isn't Cymraeg/Brythoneg either?
Sorry Merriment, but you are not making any sense. You admit it is an old Brythoneg name, but then you say us modern Cymry are confused; well after speaking to you I sure am!!!
I have called my son Alun would you like to tell me why?
But before you do, I'd just like to tell you, my father was called Alun, as was his grandfather, his grandfathers grandfather etc. Bit of a family tradition. (I am under no confusion about the name.)
Would you like to tell me that my surname isn't Cymraeg/Brythoneg either?
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Nid Cymraeg yw Brythoneg....
Welsh and Brittonic are two similar languages, but they are not interchangeable.
You seem to be missing the obvious. The medieval Welshman using the Breton name Alan was NOT referring to the early Welsh name Alun BECAUSE HE KNEW NOTHING ABOUT IT. Most medieval people could not read, and certainly did not go in for etymological trips round local river names. The only names they knew were the names of friends and family, and powerful people. The medieval Welshman did not use the name Alun because he did not know of a Welsh name Alun, and he did not know any Welsh men called Alun (if they existed, they would have died at least 500 years before his time). That is the significance of the time gap. Nor would he have named his child after the river, even if he knew of the river. Medieval children were not named after rivers; they were named after family, friends and powerful people. The modern Alun is the medieval Alan, and widely recognised as such. When people are named Alun in medieval texts in modern Welsh editions, you can be sure that the name in the original text is Alan.
There is no etymological connection between the early Welsh Alun and the medieval Breton Alan.
Your son may well be called Alun, and your father, and his father. I'm afraid it doesn't give you any advantage in actually knowing about the name, any more than being called Hiawatha would mean that you knew something about the name Hiawatha. Doing some research is the only thing that will tell you about a name. And that research has to be more than reading modern Welsh babyname books or listening to modern Welsh popular belief about names, most of which is substantially incorrect. Unless your family tradition of Aluns goes back a thousand years (unlikely) it has no bearing on this question.
You named your son Alun after your father, and because you felt it was a Welsh name. It's a Welsh name by usage; but not by origin. ;)
Welsh and Brittonic are two similar languages, but they are not interchangeable.
You seem to be missing the obvious. The medieval Welshman using the Breton name Alan was NOT referring to the early Welsh name Alun BECAUSE HE KNEW NOTHING ABOUT IT. Most medieval people could not read, and certainly did not go in for etymological trips round local river names. The only names they knew were the names of friends and family, and powerful people. The medieval Welshman did not use the name Alun because he did not know of a Welsh name Alun, and he did not know any Welsh men called Alun (if they existed, they would have died at least 500 years before his time). That is the significance of the time gap. Nor would he have named his child after the river, even if he knew of the river. Medieval children were not named after rivers; they were named after family, friends and powerful people. The modern Alun is the medieval Alan, and widely recognised as such. When people are named Alun in medieval texts in modern Welsh editions, you can be sure that the name in the original text is Alan.
There is no etymological connection between the early Welsh Alun and the medieval Breton Alan.
Your son may well be called Alun, and your father, and his father. I'm afraid it doesn't give you any advantage in actually knowing about the name, any more than being called Hiawatha would mean that you knew something about the name Hiawatha. Doing some research is the only thing that will tell you about a name. And that research has to be more than reading modern Welsh babyname books or listening to modern Welsh popular belief about names, most of which is substantially incorrect. Unless your family tradition of Aluns goes back a thousand years (unlikely) it has no bearing on this question.
You named your son Alun after your father, and because you felt it was a Welsh name. It's a Welsh name by usage; but not by origin. ;)
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Merriment/Merrylament?
" BECAUSE HE KNEW NOTHING ABOUT IT" - NO NEED TO SHOUT ;)
1. What has 'could not read' have to do with it? In Cymraeg, the two names are pronounced very differently(especially in the North).
2. "if they existed, they would have died at least 500 years before his time" Don't understand your point? Why is there a 500 year gap?
3. Have not read any baby name books!
4. "and your father, and his father". It's grandfather to grand son.
5. "Unless your family tradition of Aluns goes back a thousand years (unlikely)". So if I was able to show you my family (Llywarch) tree back to the year 1004, and show you all the Alun-s, you might belive me?
6. "Welsh and Brittonic are two similar languages, but they are not interchangeable" Sorry, might have to explain this one to me also. Being Cymraeg first language, I am able to read and understand 80% of all Brythoneg litrature I have read.
7. Sorry, just remembered, I have read a book on baby names, but it wasn't a Welsh one :)
" BECAUSE HE KNEW NOTHING ABOUT IT" - NO NEED TO SHOUT ;)
1. What has 'could not read' have to do with it? In Cymraeg, the two names are pronounced very differently(especially in the North).
2. "if they existed, they would have died at least 500 years before his time" Don't understand your point? Why is there a 500 year gap?
3. Have not read any baby name books!
4. "and your father, and his father". It's grandfather to grand son.
5. "Unless your family tradition of Aluns goes back a thousand years (unlikely)". So if I was able to show you my family (Llywarch) tree back to the year 1004, and show you all the Alun-s, you might belive me?
6. "Welsh and Brittonic are two similar languages, but they are not interchangeable" Sorry, might have to explain this one to me also. Being Cymraeg first language, I am able to read and understand 80% of all Brythoneg litrature I have read.
7. Sorry, just remembered, I have read a book on baby names, but it wasn't a Welsh one :)
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Okay, for the last time.
1. What has 'could not read' have to do with it? In Cymraeg, the two names are pronounced very differently(especially in the North).
There was noone using the name. Until the Breton name was introduced. So, the only way to encounter the name would have been to read about it. Which they couldn't do.
The pronounciation you are referring to is modern. Medieval pronounciation was more variable (see info on ah/eh below).
2. "if they existed, they would have died at least 500 years before his time" Don't understand your point? Why is there a 500 year gap?
Alun - river name. First recorded when? Never actually recorded as a personal name, so if it was a personal name, we must assume it was rare, and already out of use before 700ish.
Alan - given name. Not recorded in Wales until at least the 11th/12th century.
So the name would have to survive as a given name, despite being unrecorded as such anywhere, and then coincidentally reappear at the same time as the Breton name appeared? Unlikely. Fails the 'Occam's Razor' test.
4. "and your father, and his father". It's grandfather to grand son.
I thought you said it was your father's father's name as well. I was just listing the family members you listed.
5. "Unless your family tradition of Aluns goes back a thousand years (unlikely)". So if I was able to show you my family (Llywarch) tree back to the year 1004, and show you all the Alun-s, you might belive me?
If you could show me an Alun definitely born in Wales between 900 and 1000, with no possible Breton connections, and then an Alun at least every 5 generations (say), I would consider the possibility that Alun as a name survived in Wales, and does not solely represent a form of Alan arising from the medieval habit of confusing ah/eh sounds (i.e. in Medieval England and Wales, Alice and Ellis are interchangeable when written, and Alan is also found as Allen/Allyn (thus the surnames).
It's not a matter for 'belief', it's a matter for knowledge, and common sense conclusions.
1. What has 'could not read' have to do with it? In Cymraeg, the two names are pronounced very differently(especially in the North).
There was noone using the name. Until the Breton name was introduced. So, the only way to encounter the name would have been to read about it. Which they couldn't do.
The pronounciation you are referring to is modern. Medieval pronounciation was more variable (see info on ah/eh below).
2. "if they existed, they would have died at least 500 years before his time" Don't understand your point? Why is there a 500 year gap?
Alun - river name. First recorded when? Never actually recorded as a personal name, so if it was a personal name, we must assume it was rare, and already out of use before 700ish.
Alan - given name. Not recorded in Wales until at least the 11th/12th century.
So the name would have to survive as a given name, despite being unrecorded as such anywhere, and then coincidentally reappear at the same time as the Breton name appeared? Unlikely. Fails the 'Occam's Razor' test.
4. "and your father, and his father". It's grandfather to grand son.
I thought you said it was your father's father's name as well. I was just listing the family members you listed.
5. "Unless your family tradition of Aluns goes back a thousand years (unlikely)". So if I was able to show you my family (Llywarch) tree back to the year 1004, and show you all the Alun-s, you might belive me?
If you could show me an Alun definitely born in Wales between 900 and 1000, with no possible Breton connections, and then an Alun at least every 5 generations (say), I would consider the possibility that Alun as a name survived in Wales, and does not solely represent a form of Alan arising from the medieval habit of confusing ah/eh sounds (i.e. in Medieval England and Wales, Alice and Ellis are interchangeable when written, and Alan is also found as Allen/Allyn (thus the surnames).
It's not a matter for 'belief', it's a matter for knowledge, and common sense conclusions.
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"Okay, for the last time." Obviously time for me to go!
Will post a link to my family tree website when I have finished it.
Will post a link to my family tree website when I have finished it.
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