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ArchivesRe: About "Dexter"
in reply to a message by Kassios
I disagree. The word dexter is Latin. It is related to the Greek word (a cognate, ultimately from Indo-European *dek- see http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=d&p=8 ).
The name Dexter is an Old English surname. It coincides with the Latin word, as in it is spelled the same. If parents DO give the name intending it to mean "skillful", then it is much more likely they have the Latin word in mind.
The name Dexter is an Old English surname. It coincides with the Latin word, as in it is spelled the same. If parents DO give the name intending it to mean "skillful", then it is much more likely they have the Latin word in mind.
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Replies
Dear Mike C
Of course the word "dexter" is Latin, but it derives from the Greek word "dexiteros" (m) - "dexitera" (f)!
I am familiar with the explanation that etymonline.com gives.
However: The first historically proven use of the "PIE" ("Paleo Indo-European") base *dek- or *dex- as a prefix with the meaning of "right", is found in the Greek Linear B scripts (1500-1200 BCE):
dek-a-sa-to, dek-o-me, (words)
DEX-EYS, DEX-I-FOS (names) etc.
and not in any other "Indo-European" or Latin language. With simple words, that lead us to the scientific conclusion that the elements
*dek-, *dex- derives from Mycenaean Greek, until a finding of another inscription older than Linear B scripts changes that fact.
("Documents in Mycenaean Greek, Three Hundred Selected Tablets From Knossos, Pylos and Mycenae, With Commentary and Vocabularies". Michael Ventris and John Chadwick, Cambridge University Press, 1956.
"Corpus of Mycenaean Inscriptions of Knossos", Volumes 1-4. John Chadwick et al, Cambridge University Press.)
As for etymonline.com, (or any other etymology work written or online as far I know), although it does a good job, to my humble opinion it needs to be updated with Linear B vocabulary, a most important tool for the science of etymology, after it was deciphered by M. Ventris and J. Chadwick in 1953.
Obviously, 'If parents DO give the name intending it to mean "skillful", then it is much more likely they have the Latin word in mind.', since officially it was through the Romans that the Germanic tribes (Anglo-Saxons etc.) got in contact with the ancient Greek civilization. (Although unofficially the first contacts between Western Europeans and Greeks took place in much earlier times, i.e. Pytheas and older:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas
http://www.ahepafamily.org/d5/pytheas.html)
PS: LGPN (http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk) covers 91 names with the prefix Dex-, including two Dexters.
"Until the day that an ancient inscription will be found with the name "Alexandrovski" (or "Alexandrev" or "Alexandrov") written on it instead of "Alexander", true Macedonia and true Macedonians will remain Greek, as they always were."
Of course the word "dexter" is Latin, but it derives from the Greek word "dexiteros" (m) - "dexitera" (f)!
I am familiar with the explanation that etymonline.com gives.
However: The first historically proven use of the "PIE" ("Paleo Indo-European") base *dek- or *dex- as a prefix with the meaning of "right", is found in the Greek Linear B scripts (1500-1200 BCE):
dek-a-sa-to, dek-o-me, (words)
DEX-EYS, DEX-I-FOS (names) etc.
and not in any other "Indo-European" or Latin language. With simple words, that lead us to the scientific conclusion that the elements
*dek-, *dex- derives from Mycenaean Greek, until a finding of another inscription older than Linear B scripts changes that fact.
("Documents in Mycenaean Greek, Three Hundred Selected Tablets From Knossos, Pylos and Mycenae, With Commentary and Vocabularies". Michael Ventris and John Chadwick, Cambridge University Press, 1956.
"Corpus of Mycenaean Inscriptions of Knossos", Volumes 1-4. John Chadwick et al, Cambridge University Press.)
As for etymonline.com, (or any other etymology work written or online as far I know), although it does a good job, to my humble opinion it needs to be updated with Linear B vocabulary, a most important tool for the science of etymology, after it was deciphered by M. Ventris and J. Chadwick in 1953.
Obviously, 'If parents DO give the name intending it to mean "skillful", then it is much more likely they have the Latin word in mind.', since officially it was through the Romans that the Germanic tribes (Anglo-Saxons etc.) got in contact with the ancient Greek civilization. (Although unofficially the first contacts between Western Europeans and Greeks took place in much earlier times, i.e. Pytheas and older:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas
http://www.ahepafamily.org/d5/pytheas.html)
PS: LGPN (http://www.lgpn.ox.ac.uk) covers 91 names with the prefix Dex-, including two Dexters.
"Until the day that an ancient inscription will be found with the name "Alexandrovski" (or "Alexandrev" or "Alexandrov") written on it instead of "Alexander", true Macedonia and true Macedonians will remain Greek, as they always were."
This message was edited 2/20/2006, 3:32 AM
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Hmm... I think we have different approaches. I don't believe we can say that the English name Dexter has Greek origins just because it is identical to a Latin word that is related to a Greek word.
Take care,
Mike
PS: this may be nitpicking, but "scientific conclusions" cannot be drawn in the way you suggest. Obviously some cultures developed writing before others. Also "facts" cannot be changed - if a fact is changed then it wasn't a fact to begin with!
Take care,
Mike
PS: this may be nitpicking, but "scientific conclusions" cannot be drawn in the way you suggest. Obviously some cultures developed writing before others. Also "facts" cannot be changed - if a fact is changed then it wasn't a fact to begin with!
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Dear Mike,
I haven’t mentioned that the English name Dexter has Greek origins, but that THE name Dexter has Greek origins, (from Latin word dexter, from the Greek dexiteros etc.), especially after the proof of the usage of the name Dexter in ancient Greece!
I truly admit that you have done a great job here with this site, by far the best work online in its category, but: nobody is perfect...certainly not me! :)
Therefore, in order to get better, it is essential that whenever new evidence has been found in a situation, we have the responsibility, after we research its accuracy, to include it in our data.
So, IMHO, in the BtN search results for Dexter, if you want to be historically accurate, you must also include the origins of the Latin word dexter and more important, the fact that the personal name Dexter was already in use in ancient Greece, long before the use of the English word dexter as a surname.
Always open to constructive dialogue.
PS: In response to your PS:
1. The term "scientific conclusion" can be applied if we are talking about the theoretical sciences, (such as glossology, etymology etc.) since by definition, these sciences are based on research and the gathering of information, which they use as "scientific conclusions" until a new “discovery” appears in their field of interest.
2. Excuse my English, instead of “facts” put “data”.
"Until the day that an ancient inscription will be found with the name "Alexandrovski" (or "Alexandrev" or "Alexandrov") written on it instead of "Alexander", true Macedonia and true Macedonians will remain Greek, as they always were."
I haven’t mentioned that the English name Dexter has Greek origins, but that THE name Dexter has Greek origins, (from Latin word dexter, from the Greek dexiteros etc.), especially after the proof of the usage of the name Dexter in ancient Greece!
I truly admit that you have done a great job here with this site, by far the best work online in its category, but: nobody is perfect...certainly not me! :)
Therefore, in order to get better, it is essential that whenever new evidence has been found in a situation, we have the responsibility, after we research its accuracy, to include it in our data.
So, IMHO, in the BtN search results for Dexter, if you want to be historically accurate, you must also include the origins of the Latin word dexter and more important, the fact that the personal name Dexter was already in use in ancient Greece, long before the use of the English word dexter as a surname.
Always open to constructive dialogue.
PS: In response to your PS:
1. The term "scientific conclusion" can be applied if we are talking about the theoretical sciences, (such as glossology, etymology etc.) since by definition, these sciences are based on research and the gathering of information, which they use as "scientific conclusions" until a new “discovery” appears in their field of interest.
2. Excuse my English, instead of “facts” put “data”.
"Until the day that an ancient inscription will be found with the name "Alexandrovski" (or "Alexandrev" or "Alexandrov") written on it instead of "Alexander", true Macedonia and true Macedonians will remain Greek, as they always were."
This message was edited 2/22/2006, 1:13 AM
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I see what you are saying. Perhaps I will add the Greek name Dexter for my next update. :)
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That'll be good...
...since all of us who love this site are contributing towards its improvement, whenever necessary.
:)
"Until the day that an ancient inscription will be found with the name "Alexandrovski" (or "Alexandrev" or "Alexandrov") written on it instead of "Alexander", true Macedonia and true Macedonians will remain Greek, as they always were."
...since all of us who love this site are contributing towards its improvement, whenever necessary.
:)
"Until the day that an ancient inscription will be found with the name "Alexandrovski" (or "Alexandrev" or "Alexandrov") written on it instead of "Alexander", true Macedonia and true Macedonians will remain Greek, as they always were."
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Furthermore...
...its interesting to note that words *dex- (as a prefix with the meaning of "right") have the same figurative meaning (dexterity). The word dexiotes (ÄÅÎÉÏÔÇÓ) in both classical and contemporary Greek means dexterity (http://www.perseus.org/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2324088)
...its interesting to note that words *dex- (as a prefix with the meaning of "right") have the same figurative meaning (dexterity). The word dexiotes (ÄÅÎÉÏÔÇÓ) in both classical and contemporary Greek means dexterity (http://www.perseus.org/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2324088)
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Surely a hilarious thing to say...
... even worse if there are stupid people in the real world who believe that... :(
But how anyone can deny facts, if they are there??? Definitely not a clever person... or maybe it is someone who simply refuses to acknowledge or accept the truth. Maybe then it'll do good to them to know some really immortal words by real people and not from a funny film character:
Isokrates, 436-338 BCE:
"There is not a possible way to inspire wisdom and honesty to those who are not predisposed for it."
Epicuros, 341-270 BCE:
"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish."
Platon, 427-348 BCE:
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something."
Pythagoras of Samos, 572-500 BCE:
"You cannot explain everything to everyone."
and lastly:
Socrates, 470-399 BCE:
"When two people have a dispute, the loser is actually the winner because he learns something new."
"Until the day that an ancient inscription will be found with the name "Alexandrovski" (or "Alexandrev" or "Alexandrov") written on it instead of "Alexander", true Macedonia and true Macedonians will remain Greek, as they always were."
... even worse if there are stupid people in the real world who believe that... :(
But how anyone can deny facts, if they are there??? Definitely not a clever person... or maybe it is someone who simply refuses to acknowledge or accept the truth. Maybe then it'll do good to them to know some really immortal words by real people and not from a funny film character:
Isokrates, 436-338 BCE:
"There is not a possible way to inspire wisdom and honesty to those who are not predisposed for it."
Epicuros, 341-270 BCE:
"Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish."
Platon, 427-348 BCE:
"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools talk because they have to say something."
Pythagoras of Samos, 572-500 BCE:
"You cannot explain everything to everyone."
and lastly:
Socrates, 470-399 BCE:
"When two people have a dispute, the loser is actually the winner because he learns something new."
"Until the day that an ancient inscription will be found with the name "Alexandrovski" (or "Alexandrev" or "Alexandrov") written on it instead of "Alexander", true Macedonia and true Macedonians will remain Greek, as they always were."
This message was edited 2/21/2006, 3:29 AM
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Ah, Kassios...
"The gods too are fond of a joke."
Aristotle
~ Ivayla,
skillfully disguised as a responsible adult
"The gods too are fond of a joke."
Aristotle
~ Ivayla,
skillfully disguised as a responsible adult
This message was edited 2/21/2006, 10:37 AM
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Ok, thats better...! :)
Sorry for before, but it really pisses me off the fact that many people actually do use that phrase from the film as an insult, disguised as a joke...!
And as Diogenes said:
"I don't know your thoughts, so I don't know you."
:)
"Until the day that an ancient inscription will be found with the name "Alexandrovski" (or "Alexandrev" or "Alexandrov") written on it instead of "Alexander", true Macedonia and true Macedonians will remain Greek, as they always were."
Sorry for before, but it really pisses me off the fact that many people actually do use that phrase from the film as an insult, disguised as a joke...!
And as Diogenes said:
"I don't know your thoughts, so I don't know you."
:)
"Until the day that an ancient inscription will be found with the name "Alexandrovski" (or "Alexandrev" or "Alexandrov") written on it instead of "Alexander", true Macedonia and true Macedonians will remain Greek, as they always were."
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Pass me the windex ;)
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