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ArchivesRe: Fairytale Names?
in reply to a message by Jacks
When I was a child I believed all those fairy tales were German and I also believed that the Grimm brothers had actually written them. Later I learned that they had only collected them.
I still don't know where those tales actually originate from and I'm afraid with most of them nobody really knows. They must be very old and they obviously have undergone a lot of changes through the centuries as many of them were not written down until very late. So the names of the characters are very likely to have changed as well. This applies especially when a fairy tale wandered from one country to another. And there must have been quite a bit of traffic!
So it would sure be interesting to list the names of well known characters in different languages. To make a start: Cinderella in German is "Aschenputtel". This again means "ashes" + "little chicken". "Puttel" is not used in modern German, so I had to look it up in Grimms Wörterbuch and it says that a chicken or a dove "puttels" in the dust or the ashes in the yard.
Snow White is Schneewittchen in German and her sister is called Rosenrot.
Rumpelstilzchen is the name of the awkward creature that wouldn't tell his name and finally went down into the earth. What is his name in other languages? (Rumpelstilzchen means "noisy goblin")
None on the names I mentioned are used as given names in Germany.
Andy ;—)
I still don't know where those tales actually originate from and I'm afraid with most of them nobody really knows. They must be very old and they obviously have undergone a lot of changes through the centuries as many of them were not written down until very late. So the names of the characters are very likely to have changed as well. This applies especially when a fairy tale wandered from one country to another. And there must have been quite a bit of traffic!
So it would sure be interesting to list the names of well known characters in different languages. To make a start: Cinderella in German is "Aschenputtel". This again means "ashes" + "little chicken". "Puttel" is not used in modern German, so I had to look it up in Grimms Wörterbuch and it says that a chicken or a dove "puttels" in the dust or the ashes in the yard.
Snow White is Schneewittchen in German and her sister is called Rosenrot.
Rumpelstilzchen is the name of the awkward creature that wouldn't tell his name and finally went down into the earth. What is his name in other languages? (Rumpelstilzchen means "noisy goblin")
None on the names I mentioned are used as given names in Germany.
Andy ;—)
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Replies
The French name for Cinderella is Cendrillon. I read that this name comes from a combo of "cendre" (ash) and "souillon" ("lowest" servant).
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Good question... Maybe a feminization of "illon" because it could sound masculine to English people?
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Slightly OT interjection
"Cinderella" used to be a general slang term for a low-ranked servant girl. In some other Grimm tales, such girls are sometimes referred to as "cinderellas".
Miranda
"Cinderella" used to be a general slang term for a low-ranked servant girl. In some other Grimm tales, such girls are sometimes referred to as "cinderellas".
Miranda
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As far as I know, unlike the Grimm brothers, Perrault actually wrote Cinderella (Cendrillon, of course) as an original work. So the German link would have come later - like calling any detective a Sherlock Holmes.
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Rumpelstilzchen . . .
That's interesting that it means "noisy goblin" (I assume you're certain of the translation?). According to a book I read* this was originally an allegorical tale (as many Fairy Tales are) about female virtue and morality, and involved the creature - Rumplestiltskin in English - appearing from and returning to a rather intimate part of the female character's anatomy. Take a close look at the name - what's a stilt with a rumpled skin? :-S The book was well-researched, and cited the name used in the original version, which meant the same thing (I wish I had the book with me!). I wonder whether the German etymology is a co-incidence or a deliberate changing of the words to change the meaning? Very interesting!
*the non-fiction philosophical treatise "The Science of Discworld II: The Globe" by Terry Pratchett, Jack Cohen and someone else whose name slips my mind . . .
edit: added two missing words!
That's interesting that it means "noisy goblin" (I assume you're certain of the translation?). According to a book I read* this was originally an allegorical tale (as many Fairy Tales are) about female virtue and morality, and involved the creature - Rumplestiltskin in English - appearing from and returning to a rather intimate part of the female character's anatomy. Take a close look at the name - what's a stilt with a rumpled skin? :-S The book was well-researched, and cited the name used in the original version, which meant the same thing (I wish I had the book with me!). I wonder whether the German etymology is a co-incidence or a deliberate changing of the words to change the meaning? Very interesting!
*the non-fiction philosophical treatise "The Science of Discworld II: The Globe" by Terry Pratchett, Jack Cohen and someone else whose name slips my mind . . .
edit: added two missing words!
This message was edited 9/28/2004, 12:04 AM
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In fact I took the translation from the 33 volume German dictionary that was started by the Grimm brothers. Although they only got as far as to letter F, many scholars finished the dictionary until the 1960s with the same thoroughness as the Grimm brothers.
There is still "rumpeln" in modern German (rumble, rattle; an onomatopoetic word), but I'm not sure about the "Stilzchen" part. "Stelzen" means "stalk" or "walk on stilts" (!). "Stelzfuß" can mean "wooden leg" or "crippled foot", so maybe this is where the goblin comes in.
Now I'm pretty sure that the "skin" interpretation is secondary, it seems to be just a matter of transscription from German, but I'd like to know more about the original intention of the tale.
Andy ;—)
There is still "rumpeln" in modern German (rumble, rattle; an onomatopoetic word), but I'm not sure about the "Stilzchen" part. "Stelzen" means "stalk" or "walk on stilts" (!). "Stelzfuß" can mean "wooden leg" or "crippled foot", so maybe this is where the goblin comes in.
Now I'm pretty sure that the "skin" interpretation is secondary, it seems to be just a matter of transscription from German, but I'd like to know more about the original intention of the tale.
Andy ;—)
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Surely the -chen is just the normal German diminutive ending, suitable for a small creature or a small body part!
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Bother, I'm at home with the book now and remembered it incorrectly . . .
They just said that the name had a similar derivation in other languages.
I'd like to know more about it too! I'll add it to my "must research one day" pile. :-D
:-)
They just said that the name had a similar derivation in other languages.
I'd like to know more about it too! I'll add it to my "must research one day" pile. :-D
:-)
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