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HelpRe: POLL RESULTS! Gendered Connotations
in reply to a message by Felie
Thanks for your thoughts, especially from a bilingual perspective! I think about that a lot too, balancing how names sound in English and Czech :) Like an American would think Dagmar is incredibly masculine, but in Czech it's strictly feminine.
That's an interesting take on Tatum! I kind of hear the sound as being similar "Adam" or "Bertram" or "Callum" so fairly masculine to me, but definitely still gender neutral.
Yeah, I agree on Darcy. Because of Jane Austen, I hear it as very masculine. But I think Darcy in America has a history of being a more feminine name?
The goddess Isis makes an appearance in Ovid's version of "Iphis and Ianthe" :) but in the story (and even more so in Gower's version of the story) the name is quite masculine. Interesting how names change over like... *hundreds* of years!
And wooo Ash Ketchum!!
That's an interesting take on Tatum! I kind of hear the sound as being similar "Adam" or "Bertram" or "Callum" so fairly masculine to me, but definitely still gender neutral.
Yeah, I agree on Darcy. Because of Jane Austen, I hear it as very masculine. But I think Darcy in America has a history of being a more feminine name?
The goddess Isis makes an appearance in Ovid's version of "Iphis and Ianthe" :) but in the story (and even more so in Gower's version of the story) the name is quite masculine. Interesting how names change over like... *hundreds* of years!
And wooo Ash Ketchum!!
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Dagmar would definitely be viewed as a girl's name by most Americans. It is one of those old fashion fugly girl names that used to be more common and fell into disuse.
In Greek mythology, Iphis or Iphys was the daughter of Telethusa and Ligdus in Crete. Even though she dressed as a boy, she is known as a female character, so it makes it hard to decide how to perceive the name.
In Greek mythology, Iphis or Iphys was the daughter of Telethusa and Ligdus in Crete. Even though she dressed as a boy, she is known as a female character, so it makes it hard to decide how to perceive the name.
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Do you think that anyone under 35 would recognize Dagmar as a feminine name tho? Because I feel folks would associate it with like a high fantasy character or that it would be in a Dungeons & Dragons character guide.
Also, in relation to the myth of Iphis and Ianthe––Iphis's mother chose a truly gender neutral name because she didn't want to "technically" lie to her husband about her child's sex because he was going to kill a daughter. You're quite right about how difficult it is to perceive the name as gendered.
I get masculine vibes from it in the context of the story though, because even in Ovid's version (but way more so in Gower's) it's implied (versus straight up a part of the story for Gower) that Iphis is a trans man who by the grace of the gods gets like reaffirmed in his gender by the end so he can marry Ianthe at the end.
The Gower version is pretty neat. A little hard to read, but there's an audio recording that helps with the middle english spellings:
https://d.lib.rochester.edu/teams/text/peck-gower-confessio-amantis-book-4#iphis
Also, in relation to the myth of Iphis and Ianthe––Iphis's mother chose a truly gender neutral name because she didn't want to "technically" lie to her husband about her child's sex because he was going to kill a daughter. You're quite right about how difficult it is to perceive the name as gendered.
I get masculine vibes from it in the context of the story though, because even in Ovid's version (but way more so in Gower's) it's implied (versus straight up a part of the story for Gower) that Iphis is a trans man who by the grace of the gods gets like reaffirmed in his gender by the end so he can marry Ianthe at the end.
The Gower version is pretty neat. A little hard to read, but there's an audio recording that helps with the middle english spellings:
https://d.lib.rochester.edu/teams/text/peck-gower-confessio-amantis-book-4#iphis
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Iphis didn't really get to decide to dress as a boy. She was raised as a boy for survival and had it constantly drilled into her head throughout her life that it was better to be male than female. Women in the ancient Greek world had few rights in comparison to male citizens. Unable to vote, own land, or inherit, they had virtually no political rights of any kind and were controlled by men at nearly every stage of their lives. The gods 'gift' of becoming a man just further reinforced the sexist view that being a man was a superior state of being.
It is also worth noting that Iphis was never asked if she wanted to become a man. Ianthe didn't want to marry a woman so she prayed to the gods that Iphis would be changed, and Iphis's mother also prayed for the transformation so that she'd have the son everyone wanted her to have. To me, Iphis's story is a tragedy because all of the other characters constantly deprive her/him of agency. It is the story of a girl forced to transform to meet the expectations and values thrust upon her in a male dominated world.
It is also worth noting that Iphis was never asked if she wanted to become a man. Ianthe didn't want to marry a woman so she prayed to the gods that Iphis would be changed, and Iphis's mother also prayed for the transformation so that she'd have the son everyone wanted her to have. To me, Iphis's story is a tragedy because all of the other characters constantly deprive her/him of agency. It is the story of a girl forced to transform to meet the expectations and values thrust upon her in a male dominated world.
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That’s an interesting interpretation! It’s always cool to see how different people read a text, and I can definitely see the effects/role of misogyny in Ovid’s version, where the father like literally describes having a daughter as like a waste of money and resources. And like, Iphis definitely felt a lot of shame for falling in love with Ianthe (well, they were mutually in love and Ianthe was looking forward to the wedding regardless, while Iphis was dreading it bc gender reasons). I agree, the story can be read as tragically putting a lot of pressure on Iphis and like reinforcing misogyny and heteronormativity.
I suppose the way Gower revised the medieval version of the story, it became a lot more “progressive” if that’s the right word? Although the father was still terrible, Iphis consistently uses he/him pronouns and it focuses more on Iphis and Ianthe’s love than Ianthe’s shame. And then Gower includes like this whole morality tale explanation that by working hard in love and being committed to your partner, the gods will reward you. And I feel like that reward wasn’t just making their love more heteronormative, but like aligning the way Iphis felt about himself. There’s less of a focus on physical transformation, but more on the spiritual/love transformation.
I suppose the way Gower revised the medieval version of the story, it became a lot more “progressive” if that’s the right word? Although the father was still terrible, Iphis consistently uses he/him pronouns and it focuses more on Iphis and Ianthe’s love than Ianthe’s shame. And then Gower includes like this whole morality tale explanation that by working hard in love and being committed to your partner, the gods will reward you. And I feel like that reward wasn’t just making their love more heteronormative, but like aligning the way Iphis felt about himself. There’s less of a focus on physical transformation, but more on the spiritual/love transformation.
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