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HelpAlphonsine vs Marie
So I watched La Traviata yesterday and was looking up a little basic info beforehand. Verdi’s character, the OG golden hearted hooker with a tragic fate, named Violetta, is based on Dumas’ novel Lady of the Camelias, where she’s named Marguerite, in turn based on a real -life high class sex worker in 19th c. France, known for her beauty, her famous lovers and having died of tuberculosis at 23. Her name was Marie Duplessis, but her actual birth name was Alphonsine Plessis. Now adding “du” to her surname makes sense because it sounds fancier, and I guess Alphonsine is a bit dowdy and unglamorous, but I wonder why she changed it to Marie that must have been the name of every other woman at the time. Maybe she wanted something classic and respectable? Thoughts as to the name change to the other iterations of this figure ‘s name? She’s also known as Camille in Cukor’s film version starring Greta Garbo and basically Satine in Moulin Rouge! is also a variation on this character.
“Someone once said that it wasn’t so hard to do right; what was hard was to know what was right to do.”
William X. Kienzle
“Someone once said that it wasn’t so hard to do right; what was hard was to know what was right to do.”
William X. Kienzle
This message was edited yesterday, 6:59 AM
Replies
I like Alphonsine, it is more elaborate than Marie, but my guess, like someone said below, is that Marie bestowed a generic familiarity and popularity that allowed her a measure of privacy.
I've been into Alphonse lately, honoring artist Alphonse Mucha.
I've been into Alphonse lately, honoring artist Alphonse Mucha.
Alphonsine sounds so elegant and brocaded to me. I love it!
"du" means "from," "plessis" refers to a woven type fence or enclosure. Du Plessis just means "from the woven fence" while plessis is... the thing itself. Is it fancier to be *from* the fence, than the fence itself? I personally don't think it's a particularly fancy name either way.
As for first names, my guess would be that Marie du Plessis was a fairly generic name at the time (it still is where I live), which would have allowed her some anonymity. I have no idea how common Alphonsine was, but I like it a lot. My favourite form of Violet-names is Viola, but Violetta is gorgeous, long in an elegant way. Marguerite is my favourite version of Margaret.
As for first names, my guess would be that Marie du Plessis was a fairly generic name at the time (it still is where I live), which would have allowed her some anonymity. I have no idea how common Alphonsine was, but I like it a lot. My favourite form of Violet-names is Viola, but Violetta is gorgeous, long in an elegant way. Marguerite is my favourite version of Margaret.
This message was edited yesterday, 11:06 AM
It's pretty well known in French that the ''particule'' (de, de la, du) was considered a sign of nobility.
At first, it was indeed used to indicate where was person ''from'', but it was also adopted by noble families under the Ancien Régime to generally indicate ownership of a seigneury. Many old bourgeois families imitated this movement from the 18th century onward, because in the end, everyone wanted to imitate the nobility. So much so that today, a majority of French families bearing a name with a particle are non-noble families, of course.
Here are examples: Alfred de Musset, Jean de La Fontaine, Marquis de La Fayette, Comtesse de Ségur, Marquis de Sade, Madame de Maintenon, Madame de Sévigné, Charles de Gaulle (de Gaulle is a good example of a family using the particule, but not having any noble ties).
It's also something that was historically present in other European languages. German speakers use ''Von'', Spanish speakers have the particule ''de, de la'', etc.
So yeah, people would add it to their name to give an appearance of higher birth.
At first, it was indeed used to indicate where was person ''from'', but it was also adopted by noble families under the Ancien Régime to generally indicate ownership of a seigneury. Many old bourgeois families imitated this movement from the 18th century onward, because in the end, everyone wanted to imitate the nobility. So much so that today, a majority of French families bearing a name with a particle are non-noble families, of course.
Here are examples: Alfred de Musset, Jean de La Fontaine, Marquis de La Fayette, Comtesse de Ségur, Marquis de Sade, Madame de Maintenon, Madame de Sévigné, Charles de Gaulle (de Gaulle is a good example of a family using the particule, but not having any noble ties).
It's also something that was historically present in other European languages. German speakers use ''Von'', Spanish speakers have the particule ''de, de la'', etc.
So yeah, people would add it to their name to give an appearance of higher birth.
This message was edited yesterday, 7:22 PM
It’s not very fancy but I guess slightly more elaborate ?
Her mother's name was Marie. Perhaps that is why she used it.
Alphonse is slang for pimp in France and some other European countries. However I don't think it was in use with that meaning at the time she changed her name. I think the term is archaic in Fance now but it is still in use in some countries.
Alphonse is slang for pimp in France and some other European countries. However I don't think it was in use with that meaning at the time she changed her name. I think the term is archaic in Fance now but it is still in use in some countries.
This message was edited yesterday, 10:40 AM
Wonderful opera! Names-wise, I don't even like Violet, and Violetta is too frilly and fussy. Marguerite is fine if you're French, which of course she is. Alphonsine seems quite upper-class to me, though I don't like it: I'd guess that parents who choose it for their daughter are hoping to charm a legacy out of wealthy Uncle Alphonse. Marie is pretty ordinary: perhaps she was trying to be the Marie who stands out by being glamorously different. I would have gone back to Dumas and used Camilla or of course Camille.
Very interesting!
My guess is that because she reinvented herself, she wanted a fresh new name. And I think she picked Marie because she experienced the age-old phenomena of people with common names wishing they had an uncommon one, and people with uncommon names wishing they had a "normal" one. And nothing is more normal than Marie.
I prefer Alphonsine, because it's different, and that's the sort of thing I appreciate.
My guess is that because she reinvented herself, she wanted a fresh new name. And I think she picked Marie because she experienced the age-old phenomena of people with common names wishing they had an uncommon one, and people with uncommon names wishing they had a "normal" one. And nothing is more normal than Marie.
I prefer Alphonsine, because it's different, and that's the sort of thing I appreciate.
Marie by the mile. Alphonsine is just not attractive.