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Help[Opinions] The American softening of T's
I'm American. I live in the northeastern United States, and I guess you could say I have the sort of standard American accent, nothing regionally specific. But as someone who loves names, and language, I get frustrated with the lazy American enunciation of words sometimes.
The T in American English is generally only enunciated when it's the first letter of a word or in a cluster of consonants as in "st" or "ct." Otherwise it is softened into a "d" sound in the middle of a word, so that words like leader and liter sound almost the same. And at the end of a word, it is nasally dropped. So if you notice, when a word like "cat" is said, unless you are making a conscious effort to enunciate, you may notice that your teeth never quite touch your tounge at the end of the word. Instead a "t" ending is somehow implied nasally and with the back of your mouth.
My dilemma is Etta. I love this name as a nickname written, and I love that you say it on the tip of your tounge. It's like it's barely there. My problem is that's it's hard for me to say in American English without it sounding a lot like Edda, which I don't like. The distinction is so subtle. I can enunciate the T's, but when I do, I sound exactly like I'm speaking in a British accent. Very weird. So I'd use this name if it didn't sound like I was saying Edda. It drives me crazy! But what can I do? American English is my native language, and this is where I live. I can't just change my accent for one name.
Also, names that end in Lena and -elia are ten times better in any language besides English in my opinion. I like Lena pronounced like a cross between how an American would pronounce "Layna" and "Lenna", but there's no real in-between here. "Leena" is atrocious for this spelling in my opinion. That should be spelled Lina.
Has anyone else run into these types of problems? You like a name, but it doesn't sound good with your accent?
The T in American English is generally only enunciated when it's the first letter of a word or in a cluster of consonants as in "st" or "ct." Otherwise it is softened into a "d" sound in the middle of a word, so that words like leader and liter sound almost the same. And at the end of a word, it is nasally dropped. So if you notice, when a word like "cat" is said, unless you are making a conscious effort to enunciate, you may notice that your teeth never quite touch your tounge at the end of the word. Instead a "t" ending is somehow implied nasally and with the back of your mouth.
My dilemma is Etta. I love this name as a nickname written, and I love that you say it on the tip of your tounge. It's like it's barely there. My problem is that's it's hard for me to say in American English without it sounding a lot like Edda, which I don't like. The distinction is so subtle. I can enunciate the T's, but when I do, I sound exactly like I'm speaking in a British accent. Very weird. So I'd use this name if it didn't sound like I was saying Edda. It drives me crazy! But what can I do? American English is my native language, and this is where I live. I can't just change my accent for one name.
Also, names that end in Lena and -elia are ten times better in any language besides English in my opinion. I like Lena pronounced like a cross between how an American would pronounce "Layna" and "Lenna", but there's no real in-between here. "Leena" is atrocious for this spelling in my opinion. That should be spelled Lina.
Has anyone else run into these types of problems? You like a name, but it doesn't sound good with your accent?
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A HUGE pet peeve of mine...
is calling American pronunciation lazy. It is not "lazy", damn it! It's the American accent, and there is NOTHING inherently wrong with it. Americans don't pronounce T in the middle of a word as D because they're too "lazy" to do otherwise. They do it because that's what they've grown up hearing so, hey, that's what they do. You know what? I bet it's very hard for the British to pronounce the T as a D sound. It's probably easier for them to say it as a T. Does this mean they're "lazy"? No, it means they say it that way because that's what they grew up hearing!
About the Etta thing, I think that if you're going to expect the Americans with whom you live to speak like the British, you should give it up.
is calling American pronunciation lazy. It is not "lazy", damn it! It's the American accent, and there is NOTHING inherently wrong with it. Americans don't pronounce T in the middle of a word as D because they're too "lazy" to do otherwise. They do it because that's what they've grown up hearing so, hey, that's what they do. You know what? I bet it's very hard for the British to pronounce the T as a D sound. It's probably easier for them to say it as a T. Does this mean they're "lazy"? No, it means they say it that way because that's what they grew up hearing!
About the Etta thing, I think that if you're going to expect the Americans with whom you live to speak like the British, you should give it up.
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This is my biggest pet peeve!
I absolutely hate it! I adore the names Peter, Katharina (CAT-er-een-uh), Mehetabel, and Etta, but they come out Peder, Kaderina, Mehedabel, and Edda! Horrible! Martin is my biggest annoyance. I adore MART-in. Love it and would use it, but it doesn't even get the softened t, it's just a complete glutteral stop! So it sounds alot like MAR(Glutteral stop)-in. I hate it!
(Oh, but I love Lena pronounced Leena! To me it should be Layna for the layna sound)
I absolutely hate it! I adore the names Peter, Katharina (CAT-er-een-uh), Mehetabel, and Etta, but they come out Peder, Kaderina, Mehedabel, and Edda! Horrible! Martin is my biggest annoyance. I adore MART-in. Love it and would use it, but it doesn't even get the softened t, it's just a complete glutteral stop! So it sounds alot like MAR(Glutteral stop)-in. I hate it!
(Oh, but I love Lena pronounced Leena! To me it should be Layna for the layna sound)
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There seem to be many American respellings that don't sound the same in my accent. The worst is probably Cadie (i.e. Katie)!
I also have some issues when Americans spell things out phonetically. For example, 'VAHN' does not sound the same as 'VAWN'/Vaughan to me.
I also have some issues when Americans spell things out phonetically. For example, 'VAHN' does not sound the same as 'VAWN'/Vaughan to me.
This message was edited 5/10/2009, 5:55 AM
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Vowels
What I have a hard time accepting is that vowels in the end of names are pronounced the same in (America?) English. Like Jordan, Jorden, Jordyn, Jordin would be pronounced the same but instinctivley I would pronounce those four spellings in four different ways. Also Olivia and Alivia as two different spellings of the same name make NO sense what so ever to me. I don't understand how they can be pronounced the same. And when people say they pronounce Ellen and Elin the same I was just really confused because they are two very different names to me. I love Ellen but despise Elin.
There are quite a few names that I think sound much better in English than Swedish like Paul and Genevieve but there are also many names I don't like with an English pronounciation; Astrid, Sebastian, Sirius and French names with É (like Esmé) which are pronounced like -ay and not -eh.
What I have a hard time accepting is that vowels in the end of names are pronounced the same in (America?) English. Like Jordan, Jorden, Jordyn, Jordin would be pronounced the same but instinctivley I would pronounce those four spellings in four different ways. Also Olivia and Alivia as two different spellings of the same name make NO sense what so ever to me. I don't understand how they can be pronounced the same. And when people say they pronounce Ellen and Elin the same I was just really confused because they are two very different names to me. I love Ellen but despise Elin.
There are quite a few names that I think sound much better in English than Swedish like Paul and Genevieve but there are also many names I don't like with an English pronounciation; Astrid, Sebastian, Sirius and French names with É (like Esmé) which are pronounced like -ay and not -eh.
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Ellen and Elin sounding the same is due to the "pin-pen merger".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pin-pen_merger#Pin-pen_merger
Where I live many people (including me) pronounce Emily and Henry like Imily and Hinry. I don't like it, but it's hard to consciously change the way you speak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pin-pen_merger#Pin-pen_merger
Where I live many people (including me) pronounce Emily and Henry like Imily and Hinry. I don't like it, but it's hard to consciously change the way you speak.
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Not exactly...
I pronounce Ellen and Elin the same but not pen and pin. The pen and pin thing is regional. But all English speakers will say Ellen and Elin the same because when the stress is not on the syllable, it often comes out so short that it's just softened into a schwa.
But thanks for posting the article. It's interesting.
I pronounce Ellen and Elin the same but not pen and pin. The pen and pin thing is regional. But all English speakers will say Ellen and Elin the same because when the stress is not on the syllable, it often comes out so short that it's just softened into a schwa.
But thanks for posting the article. It's interesting.
This message was edited 5/10/2009, 7:48 PM
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I haven't really considered things like that because I guess they don't bother me. But it's something people would have to accept. Like you can't name your daughter Genevieve and go around expecting people to pronounce it zhawn-VYEV. The only name I can think of that I prefer pronounced in another language but English is Eugenie. I think it sounds nicest in French.
Kind of OT, but if you think changing a t to a d in the middle of a word is bad, don't come here. We like to just omit that sound altogether. Like "shut-up" becomes "shu'up". Or "I'm going to" is "I-munna." Or "Grand Rapids" is "GranRapids." I'm sure this would apply to a name too. Maybe not Etta. But something. Colton. Col'on. :)
Kind of OT, but if you think changing a t to a d in the middle of a word is bad, don't come here. We like to just omit that sound altogether. Like "shut-up" becomes "shu'up". Or "I'm going to" is "I-munna." Or "Grand Rapids" is "GranRapids." I'm sure this would apply to a name too. Maybe not Etta. But something. Colton. Col'on. :)
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Same for in the South
We all talk like we have marbles in our mouths and couldn't say things if we tried, and the t to d conversion is even more common. Though the Colton example would probably be said more like COHT-in with the L dropped and the T exaggerated.
It once took me half and hour to figure out that this woman was calling her children Carter and Sawyer because she said CAHD-uh and SUH-yuh.
We all talk like we have marbles in our mouths and couldn't say things if we tried, and the t to d conversion is even more common. Though the Colton example would probably be said more like COHT-in with the L dropped and the T exaggerated.
It once took me half and hour to figure out that this woman was calling her children Carter and Sawyer because she said CAHD-uh and SUH-yuh.
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Haha
The Carter and Sawyer thing made me laugh.
Reminds me of one time when I was watching Family Feud with a family from down South, and one lady said a word that sounded like AHL (that's the best way I can type it) for an answer. And John O'Hurley looked really confused and had to ask her to repeat it a few times before everyone figured out that she was saying owl. :)
The Carter and Sawyer thing made me laugh.
Reminds me of one time when I was watching Family Feud with a family from down South, and one lady said a word that sounded like AHL (that's the best way I can type it) for an answer. And John O'Hurley looked really confused and had to ask her to repeat it a few times before everyone figured out that she was saying owl. :)
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Lots of names don't sound nearly as good in an Australian accent as they do in other accents. I don't have a strong Australian accent as I have spent time living overseas and I was raised in a family where very few relatives have an Aussie accent- but most Australians are terribly sloppy with their vowels. Even mine leave a lot to be desired compared to most Northern US accents or British accents. I hate it!
I can't think of a specific name that annoys me in an Australian accent right now off the top of my head so I might edit one in later when I have some time :)
I can't think of a specific name that annoys me in an Australian accent right now off the top of my head so I might edit one in later when I have some time :)
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Wouldn't an Australian pronounce names like Georgiana as jor-jee-ANN-uh intead of jor-jee-AHN-a? That's the one thing I've noticed that bothers me. Otherwise I really like the Australian accent. I especially like how you pronounce the word "skull" lol, which I think also is slang for what we'd call "chugging" a drink. I think it sounds really cool.
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Nope . . .
Some might, some might not . . . that depends more on the level of education and cultural background, than on the Australian accent itself. I'd always say it AHN.
An Australian accent tends to turn more vowels into schwas than other languages, and they're very short schwas, so Jacob, in which the 'o' is a schwa, ends up sounding something like JAY-k'b. The schwa is barely even pronounced. This makes some names that sound lovely in one's head come out as ugly and clipped.
Some might, some might not . . . that depends more on the level of education and cultural background, than on the Australian accent itself. I'd always say it AHN.
An Australian accent tends to turn more vowels into schwas than other languages, and they're very short schwas, so Jacob, in which the 'o' is a schwa, ends up sounding something like JAY-k'b. The schwa is barely even pronounced. This makes some names that sound lovely in one's head come out as ugly and clipped.
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When I was in an English phonology class (NAE), I said that in words that end in -er, -el, and sometimes -en, I can't hear the schwa either. I know that in Czech there are words that don't have vowels, so maybe in my region with Slavic heritage, we lost some of the schwas. Also, in some words with 2 schwas in a row, we drop one of them and make the word one syllable shorter.
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Nope...
I have only ever heard it pronounced jor-jee-AHN-a here. I am sure there are some that do pronounce it jor-jee-ANN-uh though. It is a bit like any of those -ana names- you will always have people that will use one pronunciation over the other for no reason at all.
Hehe, yeah we say to scull a drink. Some people say chug as well, or 'downing' the drink, but generally the chanting that happens when someone is drinking the drink is 'SCULL SCULL SCULL'
I have only ever heard it pronounced jor-jee-AHN-a here. I am sure there are some that do pronounce it jor-jee-ANN-uh though. It is a bit like any of those -ana names- you will always have people that will use one pronunciation over the other for no reason at all.
Hehe, yeah we say to scull a drink. Some people say chug as well, or 'downing' the drink, but generally the chanting that happens when someone is drinking the drink is 'SCULL SCULL SCULL'
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Nope...
I have only ever heard it pronounced jor-jee-AHN-a here. I am sure there are some that do pronounce it jor-jee-ANN-uh though. It is a bit like any of those -ana names- you will always have people that will use one pronunciation over the other for no reason at all.
Hehe, yeah we say to scull a drink. Some people say chug as well, or 'downing' the drink, but generally the chanting that happens when someone is drinking the drink is 'SCULL SCULL SCULL'
I have only ever heard it pronounced jor-jee-AHN-a here. I am sure there are some that do pronounce it jor-jee-ANN-uh though. It is a bit like any of those -ana names- you will always have people that will use one pronunciation over the other for no reason at all.
Hehe, yeah we say to scull a drink. Some people say chug as well, or 'downing' the drink, but generally the chanting that happens when someone is drinking the drink is 'SCULL SCULL SCULL'
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