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HelpMore cultural appropriation?
Glitzy Cate's post came at just the right, or maybe wrong, moment for me. My fondness for classic rock is well known on these boards, and the other day I was playing a radio channel that usually finds some good stuff, or at least stuff I know. But then they played a song I'd never heard before or even heard of: it was certainly vintage, and told the story of how, and I quote, "Running Bear loved Little White Dove with a love big as the sky"; of course they are separated by a river, of course they attempt to swim across it, but of course "the raging river pulled them down. Now they'll always be together in that Happy Hunting Ground". The names, first of all. Straight out of a 1950s book for eight-year-olds. Running Bear - so macho! Little White Dove - so sweetly feminine! A perfect pair. And the story could hardly be less convincing; as for the Happy Hunting Ground, in this cliched context it made me feel nauseous. So, cultural misappropriation perhaps? Certainly the singer - a bathroom baritone, didn't get his name - could hardly have sounded more smug and superior. I can't imagine anything like that happening in present-day America: please tell me that I'm right.
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I am not sure I would call this "cultural appropriation."
However, it has always seemed a bit discriminatory to me that English speakers usually translated the names of Native Americans into what the name meant in English, so famous Native Americans end up being called names like Sitting Bull. The great majority of Chinese names -- and, until recently, I believe also Japanese names -- are also created from normal words in the language and have an obvious meaning to people who know how to interpret the characters they are written in. But English speakers almost never use an English translation as the name they call a Chinese person, except occasionally when a Chinese woman has a name which translates into the name of a flower such as Peony. I think this custom almost deliberately made Native Americans seem less "civilized" to English speakers and contributed to the denigration of Native cultures. I think it would be much better if we called Sitting Bull "Tȟatȟáŋka Íyotake", his name in his own language (which by the way really translates as "Bison Who Sits" instead of "Sitting Bull"). even though we couldn't pronounce it completely accurately with our accents.
However, it has always seemed a bit discriminatory to me that English speakers usually translated the names of Native Americans into what the name meant in English, so famous Native Americans end up being called names like Sitting Bull. The great majority of Chinese names -- and, until recently, I believe also Japanese names -- are also created from normal words in the language and have an obvious meaning to people who know how to interpret the characters they are written in. But English speakers almost never use an English translation as the name they call a Chinese person, except occasionally when a Chinese woman has a name which translates into the name of a flower such as Peony. I think this custom almost deliberately made Native Americans seem less "civilized" to English speakers and contributed to the denigration of Native cultures. I think it would be much better if we called Sitting Bull "Tȟatȟáŋka Íyotake", his name in his own language (which by the way really translates as "Bison Who Sits" instead of "Sitting Bull"). even though we couldn't pronounce it completely accurately with our accents.
This message was edited 6/27/2023, 4:56 PM
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You must look up the band named Sweet, to find this song:
Hiawatha didn't bother too much
'Bout Minnehaha and her tender touch
Till she took him to the silver stream
Then she whispered words like he had never heard
That made him all shudder inside when she said
Wig-wam bam, gonna make you my man
Wam bam bam, gonna get you if I can
Wig-wam bam, want to make you understand
Try a little touch, try a little too much
Just try a little wig-wam bam
Running Bear never cared enough
About Little White Dove and her tender love
Till she took him to the silver stream
She told him all about what he couldn't live without
And made him all weak inside when she said
Wig-wam bam, gonna make you my man
Wam bam bam, gonna get you if I can
Wig-wam bam, want to make you understand
Try a little touch, try a little too much
Just try a little Wig-wam bam
Wig-wam bam sham-a-lam
Wam bam bam sham-a-lam
Wig-wam bam sham-a-lam
Wam bam bam sham-a-lam
Hiawatha didn't bother too much
About Minnie Ha-Ha and her tender touch
Till she took him to the silver stream
Then she whispered words like he'd never heard
That made him all shudder inside when she said
Wig-wam bam, gonna make you my man
Wam bam bam, gonna get you if I can
Wig-wam bam, want to make you understand
Try a little touch, try a little too much
Just try a little wig-wam bam, and she said
Wig-wam bam, gonna make you my man.
Hiawatha didn't bother too much
'Bout Minnehaha and her tender touch
Till she took him to the silver stream
Then she whispered words like he had never heard
That made him all shudder inside when she said
Wig-wam bam, gonna make you my man
Wam bam bam, gonna get you if I can
Wig-wam bam, want to make you understand
Try a little touch, try a little too much
Just try a little wig-wam bam
Running Bear never cared enough
About Little White Dove and her tender love
Till she took him to the silver stream
She told him all about what he couldn't live without
And made him all weak inside when she said
Wig-wam bam, gonna make you my man
Wam bam bam, gonna get you if I can
Wig-wam bam, want to make you understand
Try a little touch, try a little too much
Just try a little Wig-wam bam
Wig-wam bam sham-a-lam
Wam bam bam sham-a-lam
Wig-wam bam sham-a-lam
Wam bam bam sham-a-lam
Hiawatha didn't bother too much
About Minnie Ha-Ha and her tender touch
Till she took him to the silver stream
Then she whispered words like he'd never heard
That made him all shudder inside when she said
Wig-wam bam, gonna make you my man
Wam bam bam, gonna get you if I can
Wig-wam bam, want to make you understand
Try a little touch, try a little too much
Just try a little wig-wam bam, and she said
Wig-wam bam, gonna make you my man.
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That is totally hilarious! Thank you!
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It's not something I encounter that often, but some people do still have phrase names like that (most of them Native American, I'd guess, yet I wouldn't think it was appropriative the way a tribe name sounds - they're English word names, even if influenced by pop culture - it's not like White, Dove, or Bear are culturally unique name meanings). Red Fawn is a modern example I've seen. I know a Dove, and there are lots of people named Bear (including a singer I like called Bear Fox who is Mohawk, though officially I think her first name is Theresa, and I've otherwise only seen it as masculine - some other musicians being Julian "Bear" McCreary and Nahko "Bear"). It happens enough that it doesn't seem archaic to me.
Happy Hunting Ground does sound dumb, like Paradise Pasture or something, but I can imagine a satire version spinning it as a road name. There are lots of weird road names like that.
ETA: I just listened to the song, and I hate it. I do like "Kaw Liga", which is maybe comparable: it's gimmicky, playing on stereotypes in a way that's potentially offensive.
Happy Hunting Ground does sound dumb, like Paradise Pasture or something, but I can imagine a satire version spinning it as a road name. There are lots of weird road names like that.
ETA: I just listened to the song, and I hate it. I do like "Kaw Liga", which is maybe comparable: it's gimmicky, playing on stereotypes in a way that's potentially offensive.
This message was edited 6/26/2023, 6:03 PM
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the singer is Johnny Preston ...
I like the term "bathroom baritone" but usually in the US that kind of singer is called a "crooner."
I've heard the song lots of times. I don't find it offensive, or especially memorable. That style of sappy, sentimental, storytelling ballad is very dated. I would almost call it a novelty song, except novelty songs are more often than not humorous. (Think "The Streak" or "A Boy Named Suee" or, God help us all, "The Purple People-Eater.")
Many Indians did indeed have names like Running Bear or Little White Dove, or at least their Indian-language names translated into those. So, yeah, the names are cliched, but I wouldn't call them or the song offensive; traditionally, names were chosen to reflect traits of the person, or traits it was desired that the person would possess, as well as circumstances of that person's life or birth. And often people acquired new names at different stages of life. And, face it, it was desirable for males to have certain characteristics and for females to have certain others. That's just how it was.
Sappy, dated, and obviously yet another reworking of the whole Romeo-and-Juliet story of star-crossed lovers.
It probably wouldn't get produced today, not so much because it is offensive as just because it is so far out of step with current musical styles.
(Johnny himself probably didn't write it. I should look it up, but my bet is it was churned out by career songwriters and he happened to be the one who got to sing it or else his version was way more popular than anyone else's.)
I like the term "bathroom baritone" but usually in the US that kind of singer is called a "crooner."
I've heard the song lots of times. I don't find it offensive, or especially memorable. That style of sappy, sentimental, storytelling ballad is very dated. I would almost call it a novelty song, except novelty songs are more often than not humorous. (Think "The Streak" or "A Boy Named Suee" or, God help us all, "The Purple People-Eater.")
Many Indians did indeed have names like Running Bear or Little White Dove, or at least their Indian-language names translated into those. So, yeah, the names are cliched, but I wouldn't call them or the song offensive; traditionally, names were chosen to reflect traits of the person, or traits it was desired that the person would possess, as well as circumstances of that person's life or birth. And often people acquired new names at different stages of life. And, face it, it was desirable for males to have certain characteristics and for females to have certain others. That's just how it was.
Sappy, dated, and obviously yet another reworking of the whole Romeo-and-Juliet story of star-crossed lovers.
It probably wouldn't get produced today, not so much because it is offensive as just because it is so far out of step with current musical styles.
(Johnny himself probably didn't write it. I should look it up, but my bet is it was churned out by career songwriters and he happened to be the one who got to sing it or else his version was way more popular than anyone else's.)
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It was written by JP Richardson aka The Big Bopper. Apparently, he also wrote "The Purple People Eater Meets the Witch Doctor" and "White Lightning"...I've never heard of him.
Wikipedia says, The inspiration for the song came from Richardson's childhood memory of the Sabine River [in 1930s Texas], where he heard stories about Indian tribes.
Wikipedia says, The inspiration for the song came from Richardson's childhood memory of the Sabine River [in 1930s Texas], where he heard stories about Indian tribes.
This message was edited 6/26/2023, 4:25 PM
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drove my Chevy to the levee
But the levee was dry.
Them good ol' boys was drinking whiskey and rye ...
The Big Bopper flipped a coin with Waylon Jennings for the last empty seat on a small airplane. Jennings lost and Big Bopper died along with Buddy Holly and Richie Valens and the pilot when the plane crashed shortly after it took off. February 3, 1959, the day the music died, according to "American Pie" by Don McLean.
Bopper's best-known song that he sang himself was "Chantilly Lace."
But the levee was dry.
Them good ol' boys was drinking whiskey and rye ...
The Big Bopper flipped a coin with Waylon Jennings for the last empty seat on a small airplane. Jennings lost and Big Bopper died along with Buddy Holly and Richie Valens and the pilot when the plane crashed shortly after it took off. February 3, 1959, the day the music died, according to "American Pie" by Don McLean.
Bopper's best-known song that he sang himself was "Chantilly Lace."
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February made me shiver
With every paper I'd deliver
Bad news on the doorstep
I couldn't take one more step
I can't remember if I cried
When I read about his widowed bride
But something touched me deep inside
The day the music died.
With every paper I'd deliver
Bad news on the doorstep
I couldn't take one more step
I can't remember if I cried
When I read about his widowed bride
But something touched me deep inside
The day the music died.
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