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ArchivesRe: Alternate origin for Darlene
in reply to a message by ClaudiaS
I am not arguing that names certainly become popular for various reasons. There is however a big difference between origin and usage. So while Carlene and Arlene may have helped make it popular, that doesn't necessarily negate that Darlene may have an older origin.
It isn't hundreds of years, it is really late 1700s and early 1800s it starts to appear, earliest I could find were 1500s, and I wasn't suggesting people were looking at old records. All it takes is a book, a song, (a movie in later centuries), or even a few women in a small area to have the name and other people hear it, like the sound of it, and start using it on their children for their own reasons.
Kayla became very popular in the US by non-Jews due to a soap opera but the fact of the matter is that it existed as a traditional Yiddish female name prior to that for centuries. It still does not change the origin of the name. People may have different reasons of using a name later on; people may use a name due to a false or incorrect etymology.
This is the same case with Jessica. Its earlier use was specific to the Anglo-Norman Jewish community, yet became very popular in the 1980s by non-Jews centuries later. Not even Shakespeare helped resurrect it among his contemporaries. Maybe because a lot of parents assumed it was a feminine form of Jessie and Jessie/Jesse was a somewhat common male counterpart at the time. It still doesn't change the fact that Jessica had a much older history.
Reasons behind the usage of names morphs throughout the centuries.
"Two sets of my great-grandparents emigrated from Germany in the 1880s. My grandmother, who was born in 1896, told me that most German immigrants were eager to shed the "old country" language and names, and fit in with English-speaking society."
I am not following how this relates to the original topic of Darlene though.
People absolutely used family bibles and they would have kept them for quite a long time. I am not talking about passing a bible down from Medieval Times or Roman Times. I am talking like 3-4 generations, which is not an unreasonable amount of time to have a family Bible, and could have gone as far back as the late 1700s. Late 1700s-1800s isn't that long, that would be about 3-4 generations unless they are coming from a rare exception where each generation is having kids starting at age 10 or 11. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Bible_(book)
Besides, I am not arguing people started seeing Darlene in family bibles and started using it.
Minnie IS a German name. It was imported into the English speaking world around the time period your are talking about and even in 1800s Germany most Wilhelminas would have been affectionately known as Minnie. Karl/Carl was also a pretty common name in the U.S and was occasionally used in England too around the same time period.
Not all German immigrants necessarily changed their names. It all depends on where they came from, when they came, the type of name they had, religion, intent of immigration and where they settled. I suppose if they had a clunky German name no one could say then they would have most likely anglicized it. But if they had a common straightforward name like Emma, Maria, Caroline, Emilia, Christine, etc, it would have been unlikely they would have changed it. The trend of shedding an old country name was more common among Eastern-European and Southeastern European immigrants because a lot of their names didn't have English equivalents. Besides, you had entire swaths of German communities in the United States, especially in Texas, that remained German-speaking for a good 2-3 generations. I guess if you are arguing that it was impossible for German names to have somehow become popular in the US, then it doesn't explain the widespread use of names like Marlene, Irma, Ernest, Adolph etc around the same time period.
It isn't hundreds of years, it is really late 1700s and early 1800s it starts to appear, earliest I could find were 1500s, and I wasn't suggesting people were looking at old records. All it takes is a book, a song, (a movie in later centuries), or even a few women in a small area to have the name and other people hear it, like the sound of it, and start using it on their children for their own reasons.
Kayla became very popular in the US by non-Jews due to a soap opera but the fact of the matter is that it existed as a traditional Yiddish female name prior to that for centuries. It still does not change the origin of the name. People may have different reasons of using a name later on; people may use a name due to a false or incorrect etymology.
This is the same case with Jessica. Its earlier use was specific to the Anglo-Norman Jewish community, yet became very popular in the 1980s by non-Jews centuries later. Not even Shakespeare helped resurrect it among his contemporaries. Maybe because a lot of parents assumed it was a feminine form of Jessie and Jessie/Jesse was a somewhat common male counterpart at the time. It still doesn't change the fact that Jessica had a much older history.
Reasons behind the usage of names morphs throughout the centuries.
"Two sets of my great-grandparents emigrated from Germany in the 1880s. My grandmother, who was born in 1896, told me that most German immigrants were eager to shed the "old country" language and names, and fit in with English-speaking society."
I am not following how this relates to the original topic of Darlene though.
People absolutely used family bibles and they would have kept them for quite a long time. I am not talking about passing a bible down from Medieval Times or Roman Times. I am talking like 3-4 generations, which is not an unreasonable amount of time to have a family Bible, and could have gone as far back as the late 1700s. Late 1700s-1800s isn't that long, that would be about 3-4 generations unless they are coming from a rare exception where each generation is having kids starting at age 10 or 11. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Bible_(book)
Besides, I am not arguing people started seeing Darlene in family bibles and started using it.
Minnie IS a German name. It was imported into the English speaking world around the time period your are talking about and even in 1800s Germany most Wilhelminas would have been affectionately known as Minnie. Karl/Carl was also a pretty common name in the U.S and was occasionally used in England too around the same time period.
Not all German immigrants necessarily changed their names. It all depends on where they came from, when they came, the type of name they had, religion, intent of immigration and where they settled. I suppose if they had a clunky German name no one could say then they would have most likely anglicized it. But if they had a common straightforward name like Emma, Maria, Caroline, Emilia, Christine, etc, it would have been unlikely they would have changed it. The trend of shedding an old country name was more common among Eastern-European and Southeastern European immigrants because a lot of their names didn't have English equivalents. Besides, you had entire swaths of German communities in the United States, especially in Texas, that remained German-speaking for a good 2-3 generations. I guess if you are arguing that it was impossible for German names to have somehow become popular in the US, then it doesn't explain the widespread use of names like Marlene, Irma, Ernest, Adolph etc around the same time period.
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